########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 24-Aug-00 08:09:09 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, EALPURCELL@juno.com <> From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to either 1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a science-basher, and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more convincing and backed by evidence. It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and integrity. 'Nuff said. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:09:09 2000 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:08:45 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA50061; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:07:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <001f01c00ddd$32175fa0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: , Cc: , References: <200008231943.MAA03313@fire.he.net> Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 24-Aug-00 10:05:45 Pacific Daylight Time From: ealpurcell@juno.com (Everett W Purcell) To: editor@liberator.net CC: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com, EALPURCELL@juno.com I have been undated by a surplus of E-mail that keeps me from other important things. I believe this is mostly game playing on your part. Bill Is a close friend of mine and a man of integrity. He is a professional man and one to be taken seriously. If you want to end this mess, just end it. This childs play has gone far enough. Everett On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 "Mark" writes: ><this >matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they >agree >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may >become >clearer to Bill what is going on.>> > >>From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of >clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to >either >1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a >science-basher, >and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more >convincing >and backed by evidence. > >It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and >integrity. > >'Nuff said. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.99]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:05:45 -0400 Received: from m5.boston.juno.com (m5.boston.juno.com [63.211.172.68]) by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:05:22 -0400 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"AjnNv9TpWwkNhqMWiBVagqCu+ZCOFD9zK13E9UDgS5JXA7mwEsnQZw=="> Received: (from ealpurcell@juno.com) by m5.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id FF9LHK4V; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:05:13 EDT To: editor@liberator.net Cc: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com, EALPURCELL@juno.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Message-ID: <20000824.090525.4559.2.EaLPurcell@juno.com> References: <200008231943.MAA03313@fire.he.net> <001f01c00ddd$32175fa0$052a03c7@liber8r> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-39 From: Everett W Purcell Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:05:13 EDT ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 24-Aug-00 12:49:59 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: ealpurcell@juno.com (Everett W Purcell) CC: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com, EALPURCELL@juno.com I received the following e-mail from Everett. I wholeheartedly disagree with his take on Bill but I cannot disagree with his conclusion. I hereby must insist that I be removed from future e-mails regarding Bill. I do not believe Bill is interested in attaining truth nor is he willing to play fair. Therefore, further discussion with him is pointless. May the debate continue but don't include me in the future. Thank you. Mark Liberator The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Everett W Purcell To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you I have been undated by a surplus of E-mail that keeps me from other important things. I believe this is mostly game playing on your part. Bill Is a close friend of mine and a man of integrity. He is a professional man and one to be taken seriously. If you want to end this mess, just end it. This childs play has gone far enough. Everett On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 "Mark" writes: ><this >matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they >agree >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may >become >clearer to Bill what is going on.>> > >>From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of >clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to >either >1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a >science-basher, >and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more >convincing >and backed by evidence. > >It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and >integrity. > >'Nuff said. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (rly-yd03.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.3]) by air-yd04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:49:59 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yd03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:49:38 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA93939; Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:46:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <000601c00e04$1fc77fc0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Everett W Purcell" Cc: , , References: <200008231943.MAA03313@fire.he.net><001f01c00ddd$32175fa0$052a03c7@liber8r> <20000824.090525.4559.2.EaLPurcell@juno.com> Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:47:22 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 11:08:25 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com Thank you Mr. Wise my email is hereby submitted as exhibit A. My wife is a saint. People ask me my opinion on cloning, I say it depends whom you want to clone. They should clone my wife and the world would be a better place instead of a bitter place. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to you >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:40:14 EDT > >BILL! You forgot to CC: your message! So I am hereby forwarding it to all >parties. > > ><< message3.txt >> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (rly-yc02.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.34]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:08:25 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f159.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.159]) by rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:08:20 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:08:19 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.196] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:08:19 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2000 18:08:19.0858 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D7D5720:01C00F88] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 11:28:17 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com My replies start with @@@@@ >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:41:46 EDT > > >>Wait, I thought I was the defendant and Everett was my Johnny Cochran!<< > >No, Bill. You accused me. You filed the lawsuit in order to support those >accusations against me. The defendent in a civil case never files the >lawsuit; it is always the plaintiff that files the complaint and the >lawsuit. That is why he is called the "plaintiff". The defendent then >needs to defend himself against the complaint. That is why he is called >the "defendent". > >Clearly in this situation, you are the plaintiff and I am the defendent. >If the judges (ie, Liberator and Mr. Purcell) disagree with me on this >matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they agree >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may >become clearer to Bill what is going on. > > >> Did you know my grandmothers maiden name is Cochran? But I do not >think we are >related.<< > >[Hallway discussion which has nothing to do with the case] >Well, it may be possible for you to be related if you were to go back far >enough. Though given the old tradition of slaves adopting their masters' >or former masters' surnames confuses the matter and makes it more unlikely >that you are actually related. Similarly, Wise is usually an anglization >of several possible German names, so that it is unlikely that any two Wises >picked at random would be related to each other; eg. Dr. Kurt Wise, >well-known creationist, and Dr. Donald Wise, non-creationist and author of >an article on creation science [see >http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/wise.htm]. @@@@@@ My Cochran ancestors were from Pennsylvainia and even have a town named after them outside of beuatiful Pittsburgh. I request any implication they were slave owners be striken from the record your honor. > > >>I know what histrionics is. I love reading about World War 2!<< > >Huh? Whatever does WWII have to do with histrionics? Bill, look the word >up. Find out what it means. It has nothing whatsoever to do with >"history". The two words are not even related; "history" comes from Greek >and "histrionics" comes from Etruscan through Latin (most dictionaries >would go no further back than Latin). Even the meanings of the roots are >entirely different. HINT: look at related words, such as "histrion", for >the etymology. > @@@@@@I would like to apologize to the court. This was an unsuccessful attempt at humor. >As for your interest in WWII, I do hope that you have cable or satellite so >that you can receive History Channel, Discovery Channel, and The Learning >Channel. In one comic strip a couple years ago that cluster was refered to >as "The Testosterone Channel" because of all the war material they carry. >And materiel, too. Unfortunately, some cable companies do not carry >the full cluster (if the channel isn't owned by the cable company's parent >mega-corporation, then you probably will never see it carried). @@@@@@ As a World War 2 expert, I take in history channel intraveniously. It is depressing, but not shocking how little Americans know about WOrkd War 2. I would like the court to note that Judge Purcell was part of the Iwo Jima campaign. > > >> I admited under cross examination I do not save these emails, ... << > >How could you have when there has been no cross examination yet? How could >there be any cross-examination when the plaintiff hasn't even presented his >case yet? > >Besides which, there never was any question about whether you save any >emails. For that matter, it hasn't been established that you even read >your email (refer to your not having seen my compliance to your request for >a specific message -- twice). @@@@@ I confess I skim over very long e mails. But I remember the email in question, heretofore the Dennys e mail. All I ask is Mr WIse apologize for insulting my wife then we can discuss World War 2. > > >> ... but after I invited you to Denny's many nasty words that were anti >religious were sent electronically.<< > >What were those words? Knowing that will help us to identify the offending >message. That information is part of the plaintiff's case, so it needs to >be presented. By the plaintiff. That means by you, Bill. > >Also, we see that now you are accusing me of electronically sending "many >nasty words that were anti religious". Should we make that Accusation #11? > Remember that in presenting your case, you need to show that I had indeed >done as you have accused me. That means that you need to be able to point >to the specific wording in the messages and then show that that wording >does indeed constitute that of which you have accused me. I am >particularly interested in seeing your evidence for this new accusation >since I am a religious man (just not of YOUR particular religion). > >If you refuse to even present your case against me, then that demonstrates >that your accusations were false and your lawsuit is frivolous. Therefore, >you do need to present your case. I will help you with the evidence as >much as I can, but first you need to tell us what those "nasty words" were >so that we can identify the applicable messages. > >I believe that the judges (ie, Liberator and Mr. Purcell) can see that we >cannot proceed without the information that you are withholding from us. I >must ask the judges that they also communicate to Bill our need for that >information and the reasonableness of our requesting that information and >the unreasonableness of Bill's withholding of that information. @@@@@ for the third time I told the court I do not save teh emails (do I have to say it 5 more toimes until it sinks in). Mr. Wise saves all my emails, so I request the court subpeona him to present it. > > >> I am confident you have the reply to Denny's email and I subpenoa it >and will not let you Fawn Hall it. Remember her?<< > >As I already stated in another email I'm sending at the same time as this >one, I have already submitted the specific email that you had requested to >all four parties involved AND I have made the ENTIRE transcript of our >correspondence available for downloading. You yourself have already >received TWO copies of the email containing the requested message and the >URL of the web page which provides the entire transcripts. > >As I also already stated in that other email, it is obvious to me that the >message that you had requested is not the one that you wanted. In order to >identify the messages that contain the offending wordings and that you want >to have presented, you must give us enough information to be able to make >that identification. You have thus far steadfastly refused to provide that >information. Please provide that information so that we may proceed. @@@@@@ Just find the e mails withthe subject of Denny's. I know you are smart and wise and resouceful and can come up with it. I may make a motion of contempt of court. You are stonewalling these fine honorable judges. > > >>You really should meet my wife and I. Yes, she is a saint! But I think >you have the wrong opinion of me. My fault is that I am too Quixotical for >some people and Saint Jennifer accepts this...we have a lot of fun. Even >if we never agreed on human origins, I have several friends who think I am >indeed crazy for believing the central nervous system is the result of >design, you would see I am a nice dude.<< > >I am forever amazed that women can put up with us men, though certainly >more than a few men deserve their own medals as well . Guess that is >part of what makes life worthwhile. @@@@@ i agree 100% that most men are bad husbands. > >Let me share a little something from the Mexican culture: la media naranja >(the half of an orange). My wife's grandmother told her the story that >before we are conceived, we are already paired together, like the two >halves of one intact orange, and are whole. But then God cuts each orange >in two, separating the two halves and sending them to two different places >to be born and to grow up, half of what we should be. So we search the >earth for our missing half, our media naranja, and when we find (in our >case) her, then we marry her and can become whole again. > >Next year will be our 25th anniversary, for which I plan to find two media >naranjas in silver. Wow youre old! I thought you were like 23 years old! Congratulations on your long successful marriage. Nice tale on the oranges. Grandma has class! > > >As for my opinion of you, that has been formed by observing your conduct >on-line. Now, as I have said before, I'm sure that in normal social and >working settings, you're a really nice guy. The same has been said of me. >But on-line you have taken on an adversarial role and have consistently >employed tactics that even you do not approve of, namely the laying down of >"rabbit trails". > >Now, if we were to meet in person, it would most probably not be in the >workplace and quite probably not socially. We both travel in very >different social circles Our social circles normally involve church and >close friends, though it may soon also involve salsa. From what I have >seen, there is nothing about your social circles that could induce my wife >to want to visit them and I personally am not a social butterfly (most of >my Navy evenings are spent studying and working on programming projects). @@@@@ I work for the Navy Mr Wise! What if it turns out we were two halfs of a pineapple meant to join as friends! Would that not be glorious! > >Therefore, that only leaves us with meeting in order to discuss >creation/evolution, which you have now rendered absolutely impossible. >First, you would likely carry your adversarial role into the meeting, >albeit masked by your smooth proselytizer's façade. Second and even worse, >you would likely carry over your evasive "rabbit trail" tactics. @@@@ Straw man. I object. I teach people love is more important than knowledge...would you like to hear a tape of my lesson? > >But third and most deadly, you have demonstrated here an inability to >follow what is going on and a tendence to "remember" things that were never >said and that had never happened (at least not how you remember them). > >For example, there were several times when we'd be trying to discuss >something (well, I'd be trying whereas you'd be "rabbit trailing") and you >would suddenly have to ask what I was talking about. You also have >demonstrated a kind of "selective blindness" in which you completely miss >the salient points of a message, even when it is spelled out to you as >clearly as possible. > >A more recent and specific example is your misinterpreting what I had said >about why I am reluctant to attend your meetings which led to you >"misquoting" me in the newsletter (ie, you claimed to have quoted me, >whereas all you had done was to paraphrase what you thought I had said). >It took about a dozen messages from me to get you to realize 1) that you >had made a mistake and 2) to get you to commit to taking corrective action >(I still need confirmation of your having made the correction that you had >promised). If I had not been able to show you exactly what I had written, >that would never have been resolved. @@@@ our latest newsletter retracts it. I try so hard to please you, yet you resist my love....why? > >Yet another example is this civil court case you've dragged us into. It is >very apparent to me that you had yet again misunderstood and/or >misinterpreted what I had written and have imagined something different >which you are now upset over. This time, it is proving to be even more >difficult to get you to the point of examining what was actually said, but >once we get to that point we should be able to resolve this matter as well. @@@@@@ see above > >Now, just think of what would have happened if there were no transcript. >You would still believe that I feared an inquisition from the CSAOC members >and would still be spreading that story (unfortunately, I cannot feel >completely certain that you are not still spreading that story, nor can I >feel confident that you had announced the correction at the last meeting). >And there would be no way possible to resolve the current situation; you >would continue to hold against me things that I had not even said or done >and would be presenting those imagined slights as evidence of how horrible >these "evilutionists" are. @@@@ See above on the retraction, and please no self pity. i never called you evil. I request this be stricken for the record. > >That presents us with a definite problem, should we ever meet in person or >on the phone to discuss creation/evolution. Without a complete and >completely accurate and completely legible record of everything that was >actually said and by whom, there would be no way to resolve any differences >that would arise due to mis-hearing something (as I could very well do >because of my degraded hearing, especially in a restaurant), to our >mis-speaking (it could very well happen to either of us), to >misunderstanding or misinterpreting something (as you have demonstrated the >tendency to do), or just plain to imagining something that hadn't been said >(as you have also demonstrated the tendency to do). I would not be able to >say a single thing without the fear of having it turned into something that >it never was and was never intended to be. @@@@@Straw man. > >Therefore, you, Bill Morgan, have rendered absolutely impossible any >substantive verbal discussion between us. All substantive discussions >between us MUST be in writing, so that we have a record of what was said so >that we have at least some chance of resolving any difficulties or >misunderstandings stemming from that discussion. The absolute necessity of >this should be apparent even to you, Bill. > @@@@@I feel like I am on a merry go round. Are you completely deaf? That is not an insulting question, but restaurants are pretty quiet. I do not want to spend 30 minutes a day answering e mails...if that is unsat to you, I am sorry to have disapponted you. > >Though, last Saturday on my way to Fry's one possible exception did occur >to me. About the only reason I could find for meeting with you personally >would be if I should ever want to do field study of current proselytizing >techniques using creation science. I'm sure that you would be more than >happy to lay your spiel on me, though you would undoubtedly not be happy as >I would analyze it and ask you probing questions about your techniques and >specifically what effect they are supposed to have. Plus, I could not say >anything substantive to you throughout the entire meeting, for the obvious >reasons cited in the paragraphs above. > @@@@@ I would welcoe your comments! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb02.mx.aol.com (rly-yb02.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.2]) by air-yb03.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:28:17 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f139.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.139]) by rly-yb02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:27:54 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:27:53 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.196] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:27:53 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2000 18:27:53.0710 (UTC) FILETIME=[5928F0E0:01C00F8B] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 11:32:41 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com I place my hand over my mouth and say nothing. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:43:06 EDT > > >>Wait! Who is the judge?<< > >It would appear that we have a two-judge panel consisting of Liberator and >Mr. Purcell. Though I have an interested third party in Washington State >who might want to sit in as well. He has given me a lot of background >information on Roger DeHart; boy, what a piece of work that guy is! He's >being more careful now about what he says in class because the Discovery >Institute seems to be grooming him for a landmark court case (kind of a >reverse John Scopes), but in the past his biology class presentation was >blatant creationism with direct religious references and with virtually no >coverage of evolution. If you weren't wasting our time with your >histrionic "rabbit trails" I could have told you about that already. > > > >>I need to ask the judge for you to produce your reply to my invitation >to eat at Dennys.<< > >I already did that at the end of the day on Monday, but my copying of the >judges' addresses into the CC: box got screwed up. As soon as I read the >"undeliverable" message the next morning I re-sent it. That means that >they got their copy Tuesday morning and you got TWO copies. You know, it >would be a lot easier to follow what's going on if you were to actually >read your email. > >As I already told you, the particular email message that you described does >not exist; I never received such an email. However, I did receive one >inviting my wife and myself to Denny's though with absolutely no mention of >your wife, so I distributed that one AND MY REPLY THERETO AS PER YOUR >REQUEST[CAPS for emphasis]. Therefore, you would be wasting the judges' >time asking them to get me to produce the messages you requested because I >have already done that. Read your email. > >Looking at my reply that you had requested, I am at a complete loss how you >could have based your accusations against me on it. It seems obvious to me >that you are thinking about another message, but I simply do not know which >one it could be. That is why I have repeatedly asked you to tell us what I >am supposed to have said, as close as you can remember to the actual >wording, so that we can find a message that seems to come close. Since you >have accused me of having called you some "very nasty names", repeating to >us what you remember those names to have been would help immensely in >identifying the desired message. So please just tell us. > >As I also said in that very same email, I have posted the ENTIRE transcript >of our correspondence where all of you can download it. So I have gone the >extra mile on your request. > > >BTW, you seem to have missed the point that *I* had to start to present >YOUR case FOR YOU; specifically the things that you have accused me of >saying and doing. As you should have seen (assuming that you read it), I >took the accusations directly from your own messages. The context of those >messages can be found in the MORGAN.00 text file that I have made available >for downloading as announced in my reply to your issuance of your lawsuit. > >If you disagree with what I listed the accusations as being, then you need >to address the court on that matter. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:32:41 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f64.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.64]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:32:30 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:32:29 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.196] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:32:29 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2000 18:32:29.0552 (UTC) FILETIME=[FD931700:01C00F8B] ########################################### Subj: Sizzler Date: 26-Aug-00 11:37:07 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com I place my hand over my keyboard and type little. I do not want to type all day long. I have confeernece to go to (Bill Gothard today (all should go) leaves to rake and babies to feed. To quote fromt he movie Patton, repeating the same stuff over is like paying for the same real estate twice. I apologize to the court and will nto repeat for the tenth time to Mr Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin of energy, origin of life questions. I can not keep banging myhead against proverbial walls and running down rabbit trails trying to get him to gvie a cogent answer. Lets meet at Sizzler..its quiet there. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:43:58 EDT > >Bill, please refer to part of a paragraph in your opening remarks: > > >Subj: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you > >Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 6:30:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time > >From: "Bill Morgan" > >To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com > >CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com > > > > ... > > ... I strongly disagree with [DWise1's] position, I have > >challenged and attacked his position, I feel it is a weak position, but I > >gladly leave the personal attacks out of it.<< > > > > ... > >Excuse me, Bill, but when have you ever "challenged and attacked [my] >position"? I cannot remember you ever doing any such thing in our entire >correspondence. Instead, you have a long and consistent history of >avoiding discussion by either laying down "rabbit trails" or by running >away from the topic. > >For that matter, Bill, with all due respect, I do not believe that you even >know what my position is, even though I have presented it to you more than >once. And if you do not know what my position is, then how could you >consider it to be weak? And how could you challenge something that you >know nothing about? Let alone attack it? > >Could you please tell us all here what my position is? >Then could you please tell us all here, briefly, why you "strongly disagree >with [it]"? >Then could you please tell us all here, briefly, why you "feel it is a weak >position"? >Then could you please tell us all here how you "have challenged and >attacked [it]"? > >Curious minds want to know. > > >While we're at it, in your "Witnessing Tips #3" [at >http://www.webmecca.com/creation/articles/article34.htm], you write: > >"DON'T; Go down rabbit trails. If you raise the question "How did life >originate?" and they quickly say "well who made God?" keep the discussion >on your question, tell them you will answer that later, but first you want >an answer to yours." > >Now, it appears obvious to me that you are telling your students that this >is an unacceptable tactic for your mark to use. I agree. It is a >diversionary tactic intended to avoid a difficult question or issue by >drawing the asker's attention (and that of any audience present) off onto a >different entangling topic from which, it is hoped, they can never return >to the original question/issue. I would agree that deliberate use of this >tactic would be dishonest and deceptive. > >At the "Nature of Nature Conference", an intelligent design conference, in >Waco (I could find no dates given, but it was before late-April of this >year), Glenn R. Morton kept encountering a similar tactic used by a speaker >during a question-and-answer period when confronted by a difficult >question. The speaker would go off on a tangent and answer the tangent but >never return to the original question. Only according to Morton's report, >much of the audience wouldn't fall for it. It's very interesting reading >at http://home.flash.net/~mortongr/wacoconf.htm . He also said a number of >things right in line with my position, but I'll have to save those until >after you have told us what you understand my position to be. > > >Now, Bill, my question to you is: >1) Why do you warning against the "rabbit trails" tactic? >2) Do you think it dishonest? >3) Why do you forbid your followers to allow its use at the same time that >you use it so pervasively as your modus operandi? > >Curious minds want to know. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:37:07 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f162.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.162]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:36:35 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:36:34 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.196] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com Subject: Sizzler Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:36:34 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2000 18:36:34.0797 (UTC) FILETIME=[8FC081D0:01C00F8C] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 11:40:31 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: editor@liberator.net, DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: EALPURCELL@juno.com That is some impartial judge huh? Mark: 1) origin of matter and energy 2) Origin of Life Please give me your best scientific explations for the orgins of these things! Thanks! >From: "Mark" >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 > ><matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they agree >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may >become >clearer to Bill what is going on.>> > >From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of >clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to either >1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a science-basher, >and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more convincing >and backed by evidence. > >It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and integrity. > >'Nuff said. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:40:30 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f132.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.132]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 14:40:25 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:40:24 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.196] From: "Bill Morgan" To: editor@liberator.net, DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: EALPURCELL@juno.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:40:24 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2000 18:40:24.0729 (UTC) FILETIME=[18CD5890:01C00F8D] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 12:43:36 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: ealpurcell@juno.com, editor@liberator.net CC: DWise1@aol.com Thank you Everett! Judgment has been passed, Mr Wise, be a gracious loser. Please do not include Everett in any further E mails. >From: Everett W Purcell >To: editor@liberator.net >CC: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com, EALPURCELL@juno.com >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:05:13 EDT > >I have been undated by a surplus of E-mail that keeps me from other >important things. I believe this is mostly game playing on your part. >Bill Is a close friend of mine and a man of integrity. He is a >professional man and one to be taken seriously. If you want to end this >mess, just end it. This childs play has gone far enough. > >Everett > > > > >On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 "Mark" writes: > >< >this > >matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they > >agree > >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may > >become > >clearer to Bill what is going on.>> > > > >>From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of > >clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to > >either > >1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a > >science-basher, > >and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more > >convincing > >and backed by evidence. > > > >It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and > >integrity. > > > >'Nuff said. > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:43:36 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f97.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.97]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:43:21 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:43:20 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.184 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.184] From: "Bill Morgan" To: ealpurcell@juno.com, editor@liberator.net Cc: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:43:20 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Aug 2000 19:43:20.0723 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3784E30:01C00F95] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 19:47:51 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: ealpurcell@juno.com, DWise1@aol.com Billy, you wrote: "Mark, lets you and I go to Dennys. I really am a great guy! And humble too!" I see you were unable to understand my last letter (see below). I do not wish to pursue discussion with you. Lastly, the above message indicates to me that you need to study the man you seem to place as a role model -- Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus may have been cocky but you're an idiot. Please do not send further letters unless you are interested in trading insults. Otherwise we both no you are a hopeless. = ) The people who cling to religion are the ones who need it most. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >From: "Mark" >To: "Everett W Purcell" >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:47:22 -0500 > >I received the following e-mail from Everett. I wholeheartedly disagree >with his take on Bill but I cannot disagree with his conclusion. I hereby >must insist that I be removed from future e-mails regarding Bill. I do not >believe Bill is interested in attaining truth nor is he willing to play >fair. Therefore, further discussion with him is pointless. > >May the debate continue but don't include me in the future. > >Thank you. > >Mark Liberator >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Everett W Purcell >To: >Cc: ; ; >Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 12:05 PM >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you > > >I have been undated by a surplus of E-mail that keeps me from other >important things. I believe this is mostly game playing on your part. >Bill Is a close friend of mine and a man of integrity. He is a >professional man and one to be taken seriously. If you want to end this >mess, just end it. This childs play has gone far enough. > >Everett > > > > >On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 "Mark" writes: > >< >this > >matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they > >agree > >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may > >become > >clearer to Bill what is going on.>> > > > >>From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of > >clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to > >either > >1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a > >science-basher, > >and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more > >convincing > >and backed by evidence. > > > >It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and > >integrity. > > > >'Nuff said. > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.1]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:47:51 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:47:38 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA51877; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:47:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <003501c00fd1$55615ec0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:48:50 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 26-Aug-00 19:51:53 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: EALPURCELL@juno.com Bill: If you would like to learn about my thoughts on your views, please view ... http://www.liberator.net/articles/crevevo1.html Thanks. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: ; ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you That is some impartial judge huh? Mark: 1) origin of matter and energy 2) Origin of Life Please give me your best scientific explations for the orgins of these things! Thanks! >From: "Mark" >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:08:42 -0500 > ><matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they agree >with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may >become >clearer to Bill what is going on.>> > >From the get-go, Bill has been playing games. He has no intention of >clearing up matters. He has every intention of slamming science to either >1) sell works of his own, 2) make a name for himself as a science-basher, >and/or 3) promote Christianity when scientific theories are more convincing >and backed by evidence. > >It is clear that Bill's motives are not centered on truth and integrity. > >'Nuff said. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:51:53 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:51:41 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA52217; Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:50:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <003a01c00fd1$ccdeaa20$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 21:52:11 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:31:34 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: ealpurcell@juno.com CC: DWise1, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: editor@liberator.net >>I have been undated by a surplus of E-mail that keeps me from other important things.<< I appreciate that you are a busy man. However, Bill Morgan's is representing your association and your cause (evangelism through creation science) and his conduct is doing damage to both. >>I believe this is mostly game playing on your part. Bill Is a close friend of mine and a man of integrity. He is a professional man and one to be taken seriously.<< I, DWise1, am the individual who has been trying to talk with Bill, with no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only contributed his own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's conduct. Yes, Bill is a professional man, but his conduct on-line has not been professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his conduct on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to legitimate questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit teaches his recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" article) or to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit trail" is a set of false accusations against me and my character which he has steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is not acting in a professional manner. For three years, 1997 through 1998 and now this year, Mark has observed how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck one question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after another by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated question which is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately recognize that tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish games, such as repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring the answer that had already been given the first time -- like the childish game he's playing now demanding information that I have already given him, twice. Mark knows what he is talking about. His assessment of Bill, to which you responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all along. Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the actual facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the facts, he has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the restoration of order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And Bill has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his agreement to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. His posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at the time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts further doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his actions. I do not think that Mark is entirely correct about Bill's motivation. While Bill's strategy is anti-science, as evidenced by the anti-science and anti-scientist themes of many of his articles, I do not believe that he is doing so for material gain, since he gives books away and does not seem to charge more than cost-of-materials-and-shipping for tapes, which he also offers for free. Rather, he does seem to believe that he is promoting his cause and his religion. However, I believe that there is also a lot of ego and self-aggrandizement motivating Bill, what I've heard refered to as "being a legend in his own mind." As for somebody who is "to be taken seriously", I'm afraid that Bill has already destroyed that notion. In prior years, Bill had been very busy out there in cyberspace distributing his long essay, "Creation vs. Evolution: What is the Better Explanation?", in many newsgroups, several of which it clearly did not belong in. Of course, it did not help matters much that it was nearly unreadable because it was in word-processor format. This generated a lot of newsgroup responses and emails that were sent to Bill, reportedly none of which Bill ever bothered to respond to. One observer described who Bill would post his huge essay, ignore all the responses, then a few months later he would post it again and ignore all the responses again. As a result, just about everybody Bill has a widely held reputation for being just another crackpot creationist who has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. I have not been able to find anybody who has tried to talk seriously with Bill about his claims and is able to take him seriously. Most of them view Bill as an idiot. Which is what makes this your problem, Mr. Purcell. Your loyalty to your friend is admirable. But you also have a duty to your cause (creationism) and, as CSAOC President, to your organization. Bill Morgan is out there representing creationism and the CSAOC. Bill's actions threaten that cause and bring disgrace upon your organization. Does your personal loyalty to Bill outweigh your duty? >>If you want to end this mess, just end it.<< I am trying to end this mess, but Bill's preventing it. I had brought you into this discussion in the hope that you could help Bill come to his senses. First he insulted my wife and me, then he started accusing me of having insulted him and his wife. I showed him his insult to us (though I doubt that he understands it), but he steadfastly refuses to even say what he thinks I had said to insult him. As you have witnessed, I have repeatedly told him that we can clear all this up quickly by comparing what he thinks I had written with what I had actually written, but first I need to know what he thinks I had written. As you have witnessed, he refuses to say. In the meantime, you have also witnessed that Bill has requested the text of certain messages. You have also witnessed that I immediately provided him with the requested text AND I made the ENTIRE transcript of our correspondence available both to him and to you and Mark. You have also witnessed that Bill is repeating his request and making the blatantly false claim that I will not fill his request. We know his claim is false because you have seen for yourself that I gave him exactly what he had requested and much much more. Now it becomes problematic. Is Bill playing yet another one of his childish games? Or does Bill really not know what is going on? Is he really unable to keep track of who he's talking with? Many of his accusations refer to things that I have never said and never would say. Now he is also complaining that he "will nto repeat for the tenth time to Mr Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin of energy, origin of life questions." He has never asked me those questions, ever. All this has been about for almost a month is that he has accused me of having insulted him and I have been trying to find out what he is talking about. Clearly, Bill is severely confused and losing touch with reality. Almost everything that he claims I have done is a figment of his imagination. Bill is stumbling. He needs help. Does your loyalty and friendship to Bill call for you to ignore him when he stumbles? Or does it call for you to help him get back up and straighten himself up? If you are unable or unwilling to help Bill, then could you at least find somebody who will? I definitely want this mess to end, but I cannot just walk away from it. I need to get this matter resolved and I am doing what I can to get it resolved. Bill is trying to keep that from happening. >>This childs play has gone far enough.<< Are you talking about this courtroom metaphor? You need to talk with Bill about that, since he is the one who created it and invoked it. All I did was to play along with him in the hope that he might provide us with the information we need to resolve this mess. As you can see, Bill continues to prevent that. If you truly wish to hear no more about this, then let me know. In any event, you will still receive replies to the other currently pending messages. After that, you should hear no more. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:32:41 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: editor@liberator.net CC: DWise1, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: ealpurcell@juno.com Sorry to hear you're dropping out. Would it be alright for me to CC: you when I send Bill good information, like the truth about the creationist teacher, Roger DeHart, for whom he was drumming up some sympathy for last month? One of the problems of trying to deal with Bill is that he doesn't seem to have much of a grasp on reality. Did you see one of his latest messages to me? >Subj: Sizzler >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 2:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com >CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com >I place my hand over my keyboard and type little. > > ... >I apologize to the court and will nto repeat for >the tenth time to Mr Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin >of energy, origin of life questions. "Tenth time"? Bill has never ever asked me that question. Not even once. Oh, he tried some of his other "unanswerable", "rabbit trail" questions on me before, as I have documented in my Morgan Pages [http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/questions.html], but never that one. And Bill has most certain never ever said anything to me about not answering that question, which he had never asked me to begin with. Not once and most certainly not ten times. And besides, that isn't even what has been going on for the past few weeks. It looks like Bill has left merely imagining things and has moved on to full-blown hallucinations. He has gone beyond merely not knowing what is going on around him and has started to vacation in his own private little universe. Gee, Mark, you're leaving already and we're just now getting to the weird part. PS You will still get a few more replies from the pending messages CC:'d to you. ########################################### Subj: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:34:58 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>Thank you Mr. Wise my email is hereby submitted as exhibit A.<< Huh? What are you trying to say here? What email are you talking about? >>My wife is a saint.<< OK, Bill, now try to think here. I applied a conditional to that statement. By saying that I have reached the stated conclusion, you are also confirming that the stated condition is true. The conditional statement in question was: "If this is also how you act in person, then she must be a saint to be able to put up with you." Therefore, you have confirmed what I had suspected, that you act in person the same way that you act on-line. That means that also in person you dodge every question you can, lay down your "rabbit trails", make false accusations, do not pay attention to what is going on, and go into histrionics (which means putting on an over-emotional act, what we used to call our younger son doing his "Sarah Burnhart" when he was a pre-schooler). Now we can add to that the tendency to hallucinate into existence events that never actually happened (re: your "Sizzler" message and my reply thereto). No adult can long tolerate such behavior from another adult without a drink winding up in somebody's lap, or worse. Obviously, until you can adopt more mature behavior and a firmer grasp on reality, a personal meeting is out of the question. Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:35:57 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>@@@@@@ My Cochran ancestors were from Pennsylvainia and even have a town named after them outside of beuatiful Pittsburgh. I request any implication they were slave owners be striken from the record your honor.<< Oh, grow up, Bill! I never implied any such thing! Hold your imagination in check for a change and read what I actually write! >>Well, it may be possible for you to be related if you were to go back far enough. Though given the old tradition of slaves adopting their masters' or former masters' surnames confuses the matter and makes it more unlikely that you are actually related.<< I merely stated historical fact and that is all. I said absolutely nothing at all about your own personal ancestors, nor did I imply anything. Rather I was pointing out that the sharing of a surname does not necessarily mean that there may be a blood relationship. That is all. The Cochran whose name the lawyer's ancestors adopted might have been an n'th cousin of yours, about four or five times removed, or he might not have been. So what? That says nothing at all about you nor about your other ancestors. Every single family has skeletons in its family tree's closets. That's nothing to be ashamed of; sometimes its the most interesting part of the family history. For example, at the last Scottish Games as the clans marched in, the MC commented about us Donalds that our motto should be "The moon is our lantern" because we do our best work at night. In other words, the Clan Donald had a reputation for rustling livestock. That is what brought the Campbell soldiers to Glencoe, where they accepted Donald hospitality and then slaughtered their hosts in their sleep. Which is one reason why the other clans do not like nor trust the Campbells. Of course, their having sided with the English did not help matters much either. Now, that does not make me a cattle rustler. Nor does that mean that my brother-in-law's wife (a Campbell) will try to kill us in our sleep. Nor would the possibility that an n'th cousin of yours x times removed might have been a slave owner make you a slave owner or a racist. My father's father was always trying get-rich-quick and his family often had to skip town to avoid their debts, so my father settled down in one place and did everything he could to conduct all his business and personal dealings as honestly as he possibly could. My father had a definite problem with alcohol, so I have made sure not to develop similar problems. At the same time, he had learned many positive things from his father as I had learned many positive things from mine and have tried to teach to my sons. From our family history, we draw inspiration from and try to emulate the positive accomplishments and traits and we take the negative things and try to learn from those mistakes. At no time do we try to hide from any of it. That is the way that it should be. Besides, I thought that you would have jumped on that "back far enough" right away and turned it into a reference to Adam and Eve. After all, don't you believe that every single human on this planet is related to every other one, with Adam and Eve as the original ancestors? BTW, a good friend of ours was born and raised in Pittsburgh. She always said it was great to be FROM there. >>I request any implication they were slave owners be striken from the record your honor.<< ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY DENIED!!! The record stands as-is! What was said was said and that is that! No entry in the record shall not be added to, deleted from, or modified! If I were to modify the record to meet anybody and everybody's whim, then it would lose its integrity and could not possibly stand as the record. Rather, one may request clarification or a retraction, which would be added to the record as a new entry. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:36:33 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>It is depressing, but not shocking how little Americans know about WOrkd War 2.<< It is depressing how little Americans know about history, period. Why, did you know that most Americans actually believe that America was founded with the motto, "In God We Trust"? Or that most Americans (at least those under 50) believe that the Pledge of Allegience had always contained the words, "under God"? Unbelievable! BTW, do you know when "under God" was added to the Pledge, when "In God We Trust" became mandatory on our money, and when it became the National Motto? Please answer first before you look it up. The other night while our younger son was watching History Channel, I pointed out to him how little programming of that kind there was when I was his age and how he is much more aware of a wider range of historical and scientific topics than I ever could have been at his age. PBS was just getting started, but most TVs didn't have UHF tuners. And when they did, the main attraction was televised bullfights on the Mexican stations. The networks had the occasional special documentary, but they were few and far between. >>I would like the court to note that Judge Purcell was part of the Iwo Jima campaign.<< Laudable, but immaterial to this case. Also immaterial is the fact that my father was a CB on Saipan. Not only was he part of the invasion force, but he was also in the second trench from the beach waiting to repell the Japanese assault to retake the island. He described sitting there watching the smoke from the Japanese task force as it neared the island ... , then turned south. It was yet another Japanese feint to mask their real objective; I never learned what that was. The CBs were put in those front trenches because their CO had volunteered them. He wanted the glory. Later, the CO was assigned to the Iwo Jima invasion force. Every man in his Saipan command sincerely hoped that he would get the glory that he so dearly wanted [grin]. Now for a history quiz. What was the strategic significance of Saipan? It was not simply a part of an overall stepping-stone strategy. You might want to consult a map to look at a nearby place name. HINT: it is a main reason why we needed to take Iwo Jima. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:37:20 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>@@@@@ I confess I skim over very long e mails.<< Which could partially explain why you don't know what's going on, why you cannot keep straight who said what, and why you keep imagining things. You need to read what is written and not imagine what they might say. >>But I remember the email in question, heretofore the Dennys e mail.<< But what you remember never happened. That is part of the problem: you read very little of what there is, you remember even less, and then you fill in the gaps with your imagination. Too much of what you "remember" never happened. What you "remember" is inviting my wife and me to join your wife and you at Denny's. Never happened. Rather, you did invite my wife and me to join you at Denny's, but there was no mention of your wife. The first time your wife was mentioned was when you insulted my wife and me a few messages downstream. Subsequently, I never made any mention of your wife until you accused me of having insulted her, and even then it was just to say that I had not insulted her. Everything escalated after that point. I again point out that I sent you the closest messages I could find to what you had requested: your Dennys invitation and my reply thereto. I again point out that sent it to you twice, because of an addressing error in CC:ing it to our witnesses. I again point out that I provided you with the ENTIRE transcript on 21 August 2000, more than a week ago. I also again point out that if you would only tell me what you "remember" be saying in insult to your wife and you, then I could help you find the messages that your "memory" is based on. Thus we could clear all this up in very short time. I believe that this is the fourteenth or fifteenth request I have made to you. >>All I ask is Mr WIse apologize for insulting my wife then we can discuss World War 2.<< I cannot apologize for something of which I have no knowledge. Not only would such an apology be worthless and hypocritical, but it would also lend credence to something which I believe had never happened. As I had mentioned in an earlier message today, I had learned some positive things from my father, such as honesty, honor, and love of truth and of learning. To concede something that I believe not to be true would violate those ideals. Now, if you could please tell me what it is that you "remember" me to have said in insulting your wife, then we could investigate the matter, see what I had actually written, and determine whether it was an insult directed at her or not. If I had in fact insulted your wife, then I will apologize for it. You have my word on that. But if I had NOT in fact insulted your wife, then I will expect your apology for having falsely accused me. In either event, I fully expect you to offer your most sincere apology to Mark and to Mr. Purcell for your behavior. For having stubbornly prevented the rapid resolution of this matter and for causing it to escalate so far out of proportion. And for the excessive acrimony that you have caused. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:37:46 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com BILL. DO NOT SKIM THIS MESSAGE! READ IT! >>@@@@@ for the third time I told the court I do not save teh emails (do I have to say it 5 more toimes until it sinks in).<< IMMATERIAL! You know full well that that has NEVER been an issue in these proceedings! Cease this line of "rabbit trailing" at once! The information that we need is your MEMORY! What you "REMEMBER" that I had said. You know, that big blank space on your "From the Mind of Bill Morgan" stationary. YOU are the only one who has access to it! For the -- what is it now? -- SEVENTEENTH time, we need that information in order to resolve this matter! With that information, we can then find the messages that you think you remember and we can read what they ACTUALLY say. Without that information, we have no idea what you are talking about. What part of that do you not understand, Bill? Do I need to say it SEVENTEEN MORE TIMES until it sinks in? >>Mr. Wise saves all my emails, so I request the court subpeona him to present it.<< We know that, Bill. That is why I made THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT OF OUR CORRESPONDENCE available to you . More than TEN DAYS AGO!!! Which I informed you of, TWICE!! READ YOUR EMAIL, BILL!! Otherwise, you make yourself look like a complete idiot. Since I am sure that you did not save any pertinent information, here is the URL --- AGAIN! : TRANSCRIPTS OF THE E-MAIL CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN BILL MORGAN AND DWISE1 http://chiefwise.tripod.com/morgan/transcript.html BILL. DO NOT SKIM THIS MESSAGE! READ IT! ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:38:19 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>@@@@@@ Just find the e mails withthe subject of Denny's. I know you are smart and wise and resouceful and can come up with it. I may make a motion of contempt of court. You are stonewalling these fine honorable judges.<< Stop this stupid game, Bill! You're acting like a complete idiot! I gave you the messages you asked for IMMEDIATELY upon request! On 19 Aug and 21 Aug. On 21 Aug, I also made the ENTIRE body of transcripts available to all parties involved and notified them of that fact and of where to get the transcripts IN THE VERY SAME MESSAGES WHICH CONTAINED THE MESSAGES YOU HAD REQUESTED! You have had them for over TEN DAYS! Why are you showing all of us such contempt by playing your stupid games? Are you the "fine" example of how a Christian deals with truth? Well then thank you very much for your witness. Now please stop stonewalling us and tell us what you "remember" I had said to insult you and your wife. I believe that this is the EIGHTEENTH such request I have made. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:38:41 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>Wow youre old! I thought you were like 23 years old!<< Gee, what would have given you that idea? Let's see. Could it have been that I had mentioned that my son was in the high school choir? Or my warning you from personal experience what you should expect to happen to your body in the next decade? Or my telling about my experience with the Jesus Freak movement early on in college around 1970? Gee, what else could you have thought? Bill, you need to learn to pay attention to what is going on around you. You also need to try to keep track of whom you are talking with. Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:39:12 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >Therefore, that only leaves us with meeting in order to discuss >creation/evolution, which you have now rendered absolutely impossible. >First, you would likely carry your adversarial role into the meeting, >albeit masked by your smooth proselytizer's façade. Second and even worse, >you would likely carry over your evasive "rabbit trail" tactics. >@@@@ Straw man. I object. I teach people love is more important than knowledge...would you like to hear a tape of my lesson?<< Oh, Bill, do you even know what a straw-man argument is? No, my concerns are very real. Especially now that you have verified that you behave in person the same as you do on-line. A more recent and specific example is your misinterpreting what I had said >about why I am reluctant to attend your meetings which led to you >"misquoting" me in the newsletter (ie, you claimed to have quoted me, >whereas all you had done was to paraphrase what you thought I had said). >It took about a dozen messages from me to get you to realize 1) that you >had made a mistake and 2) to get you to commit to taking corrective action >(I still need confirmation of your having made the correction that you had >promised). If I had not been able to show you exactly what I had written, >that would never have been resolved. >@@@@ our latest newsletter retracts it. I try so hard to please you, yet you resist my love....why?<< Immaterial! Rabbit trail! The fact that you have printed a retraction (which I have yet to see, BTW), has nothing whatsoever to do with the paragraph above. The fact still remains that the ONLY reason that we were able to arrive at the truth in that matter was because we had a transcript of what had actually been said. Without that transcript, NOTHING would have been resolved. Stop dodging the facts, Bill! >Now, just think of what would have happened if there were no transcript. >You would still believe that I feared an inquisition from the CSAOC members >and would still be spreading that story (unfortunately, I cannot feel >completely certain that you are not still spreading that story, nor can I >feel confident that you had announced the correction at the last meeting). >And there would be no way possible to resolve the current situation; you >would continue to hold against me things that I had not even said or done >and would be presenting those imagined slights as evidence of how horrible >these "evilutionists" are. @@@@ See above on the retraction, and please no self pity. i never called you evil. I request this be stricken for the record.<< Oh grow up, Bill! I never made that claim. "Evilutionist" is a common enough reference used primarily by non-creationists to characterize how many creationists, especially such leaders as Dr. Henry Morris, feel about evolution being the source of almost all evil in history and in our society. It especially fits in when one is trying to imitate a speech impediment (that joke is one I got from a Fundamentalist I work with here; he said jokingly that having heard all those preachers and the trouble they had speaking normally, he was afraid that being a Fundamentalist would cause him to develop a speech impediment too). REQUEST DENIED! The record must remain inviolate! Nothing may be stricken from it! Nothing! >Therefore, you, Bill Morgan, have rendered absolutely impossible any >substantive verbal discussion between us. All substantive discussions >between us MUST be in writing, so that we have a record of what was said so >that we have at least some chance of resolving any difficulties or >misunderstandings stemming from that discussion. The absolute necessity of >this should be apparent even to you, Bill. > >@@@@@I feel like I am on a merry go round. Are you completely deaf? That is not an insulting question, but restaurants are pretty quiet. I do not want to spend 30 minutes a day answering e mails...if that is unsat to you, I am sorry to have disapponted you.<< And I do not have weeks on end to waste trying to clear up what you have misconstrued! ALL of our discussions MUST be IN WRITING! That is the only way that we can possibly correct the mistakes that you will inevitably make. If you have any doubt about that, just look at what has been going on for these past two weeks. Besides, now that you have started to hallucinate (see my reply to your "Sizzler" message), I feel uncertain of your mental stability. I would not be comfortable sitting within your kill-zone while you have sharp objects in your possession. [I am of course kidding here, but only partially] I have been in many restaurants. In all of them, I do have difficulty hearing entire conversations. What part of that do you not understand? About the only reason I could find for meeting with you personally >would be if I should ever want to do field study of current proselytizing >techniques using creation science. @@@@@ I would welcoe your comments!<< I am not currently conducting such research, but I will keep you in mind. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:39:54 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >If you disagree with what I listed the accusations as being, then you need >to address the court on that matter. > >>I place my hand over my mouth and say nothing.<< Therefore you agree with what I had listed your accusations to be. Again, they are: 1. Having conducted "bigoted attacks on [him] and [his] wife" 2. Thinking he is "some evil wicked person out to destroy society". 3. Thinking he is "wacked for beleiving in God". 4. "[P]ersonally insulting [him] on the level of a name calling 2nd grader." 5. "[I]nsulting [his] wife and [him]. 6. That my wife and I had labelled him and his wife as evil. 7. Calling him "very nasty names." 8. That I had told him "what [my] wife thought of those who beleive in Gid". 9. That I would think he and his wife "are evil and wicked, the world's most sinister people". 10. That I refuse to meet him because of his beliefs. To which we must now add a new accusation: 11. That I sent electronically "many nasty words that were anti religious". Since you have confirmed that you have indeed made these accusations, you must now substantiate them. You need to show us that I had indeed done these things. FOR THAT PURPOSE, I have made the ENTIRE transcript available to you and it has been available to you for ten days already. I also presented to you and our witnesses, IMMEDIATELY UPON YOUR REQUEST, the messages THAT YOU REQUESTED. I have also repeatedly offered to help you find the messages upon which you have based your "memories" of the insults that you allege. However, as I have told you repeatedly, I cannot help you until I know what you are talking about. You need to tell me what you "remember" me as having said so that I can match that with the messages in question. Therefore, I request for the NINETEENTH TIME, that you tell me what you "remember" that I had said in those insults, especially the particular words you "remember" me using. ########################################### Subj: Re: Sizzler Date: 02-Sep-00 12:40:46 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>I apologize to the court and will nto repeat for the tenth time to Mr Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin of energy, origin of life questions.<< WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Bill, YOU ARE HALLUCINATING!! You've totally lost it now! "tenth time"?? There hasn't even been a FIRST time. You had NEVER EVER asked ME that question! EVER! You have asked me a lot of other questions and I answered almost all of them (about 23 out of 25 questions, or 92%). But never that one! [NOTE: BTW, the two questions I did not answer were: 1. "Would you like a cop of the video and audio tape of the debate for cost?" 2. "Would you like a shot at eastman? Do you have the desire to debate him?" ] OK, Bill. You tell us EXACTLY when you had asked ME that question and when those TEN TIMES were that you claim to have had to repeatedly ask me for an answer. TELL US! Because that is the most blatant falsehood you have ever tried to foist off on us! That makes it obvious to us all that you either are not dealing with us honestly or you are not playing with a full deck. [NOTE: The first time that I have ever seen Bill ask that question in an email addressed to me is in the email that Bill sent 3 minutes, 24 seconds AFTER the one to which I am now replying and in which he accuses me of not answering that question. And in the message where he asks the question, he specifically directs the question to MARK, not to me. Go figure.] >>I can not keep banging myhead against proverbial walls and running down rabbit trails trying to get him to gvie a cogent answer.<< Bill, we adults find it very irritating when somebody plays that childish game of yours where you twist and distort everything to become the opposite of what it really is. The record clearly shows that throughout our correspondence YOU have been the one who has erected obstacles to meaningful discussion. YOU have been the one laying down "rabbit trails" with your "unanswerable questions" (almost all of which I DID answer), whereas *I* have repeatedly tried to keep the discussion on target. I have given you cogent, intelligent, and intelligible answers, which YOU have either ignored or just refused to read (as you now admit). Here again are the facts and figures from the two years of our prior correspondence: Bill's Questions to Me: Answered: 23 Unanswered: 2 Percent Answered: 23/25 = 92% My Questions to Bill: Answered: 12 Unanswered: 65 Asked Repeated and Not Answered: 18 Percent Answered: 12/(12+65+18) = 12/95 = 12.6% Also please bear in mind that I purposefully was very lenient and generous in arriving at the 12.6% figure for Bill and very strict and stingey in arriving at the 92% figure for myself. Bill, you need to learn to face facts, not continually try to escape them. And please, please stop acting like an idiot. Your choir may think you're great when you preach to them, but that's because they have not had to deal with your nonsense. I have read what others in cyberspace had to say about trying to deal with you; the consensus is that you are an idiot. If you know of one of your opponents out there who doesn't think that, then please let me know and put me in touch with him. Now Mark has also called you an idiot because of the way you have been acting. We know that you are not an idiot, so why do you insist on acting like one? Believe me, it is not cute nor is it the least bit amusing. >>Lets meet at Sizzler..its quiet there.<< No, it wouldn't be. Because I'd be there with somebody who acts like an idiot. No way am I going to spoil my digestion by having to put up with your nonsense. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:41:27 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>That is some impartial judge huh? [apparently refering to Mark]<< At least Mark took the trouble to observe what has been going on, Bill. If you had conducted yourself in a professional manner, Mark would have noted that and judged you accordingly. As it is, you have consistently conducted yourself in a very unprofessional manner and Mark has judged you accordingly. Mr. Purcell didn't want to be bothered and decided to turn a blind eye on your transgressions because you're his friend. Hardly impartial, is Mr. Purcell? >>Mark: 1) origin of matter and energy 2) Origin of Life Please give me your best scientific explations for the orgins of these things!<< Still up to your old "rabbit trail" tricks, huh, Bill? I'm sure that you will try it on me next, so I'll just apply your lesson: >>"DON'T; Go down rabbit trails. If you raise the question "How did life originate?" and they quickly say "well who made God?" keep the discussion on your question, tell them you will answer that later, but first you want an answer to yours."<< So, you have instructed me to keep you from creating yet another "rabbit trail." As instructed, I would tell you that I would answer your question only after you had answered mine. Now for the kicker. You owe me answers to about 85 questions. You must answer every one of them to my satisfaction (ie, I must recognize it as an honest answer that actually does address the question). Only then can I even consider answering another one of your "rabbit trail" questions. You probably don't remember them all, but don't worry. I will help you to remember them. As they were actually asked, not as you might want to imagine them to be. Of course, one of the first ones would be for you to substantiate your ELEVEN accusations against me by telling us what you think I had said. Remember, there are eleven accusations, so we will need to see support for all eleven. Next would be the question of your extensive use of "rabbit trails", even though you explicitly teach against allowing anyone to use that trick. The question was in three parts: >1) Why do you warning against the "rabbit trails" tactic? >2) Do you think it dishonest? >3) Why do you forbid your followers to allow its use at the same time that >you use it so pervasively as your modus operandi? Next would be the question of what you think my position is, why you "strongly disagree with [it]", why you "feel it is a weak position", and just where and how have you "challenged and attacked [it]"? Next would be why you have posted claims on your web site that you know are false and which you knew were false before you posted them? In particular, I am refering to your "Ozone Layer" article, in which you falsely claim that scientists had taken lab experiments and extrapolated from that that there could be CFCs in the upper atmosphere and that nobody could answer some simple questions about that. I clearly showed you that NOAA (where the real experts are, not at air-conditioning trade shows) has indeed answered those questions and have posted them in a FAQ to which I had pointed you. Also, NOAA has stated that the presence of CFCs high in the atmosphere has been measured with thousands of direct measurements and samples. Then there are more than 80 questions still pending from our previous correspondence, plus any other more recent questions that I might have forgotten. I can list those again for you if you'd like. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 12:43:56 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com >>Thank you Everett! Judgment has been passed, Mr Wise, be a gracious loser.<< No, Bill. No judgement has been passed in this case. Mark is utterly disgusted with your outrageous behavior and Mr. Purcell sees it as childish and has no time for it. They both consider your lawsuit to be frivolous and neither of them wants to waste their time on it. Besides, neither of them had answered the question in question: "No, Bill. You accused me. You filed the lawsuit in order to support those accusations against me. The defendent in a civil case never files the lawsuit; it is always the plaintiff that files the complaint and the lawsuit. That is why he is called the "plaintiff". The defendent then needs to defend himself against the complaint. That is why he is called the "defendent". "Clearly in this situation, you are the plaintiff and I am the defendent. If the judges (ie, Liberator and Mr. Purcell) disagree with me on this matter, then I ask that they so state. For that matter, even if they agree with me on this matter, I would like them to so state, so that it may become clearer to Bill what is going on." Instead, they simply threw the entire thing out of court. Obviously, they could see that you have no case and neither of them consider your false accusations against me to have any merit. Clearly, Bill, you are the loser here. Now, could you please be a gracious loser and allow us to resolve this problem that you have created? Please substantiate your accusations against me by telling me what you believe that I had said. Then we should be able to resolve this mess. This would be the TWENTIETH time that I have had to make this simple request. >>Please do not include Everett in any further E mails.<< OK. I just included him on the pending replies, since he was included in those messages to which I am replying. After this, I will not include him unless you do. Or unless there is something that I feel that he really should know. PS Speaking of frivolous lawsuits, how is John Peloza doing? As I recall, last I heard, the appeals court also judged his federal lawsuit to be frivolous and upheld the order that he pay court costs. He swore that he would not pay it. Any news as to what has happened after that? ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 16:10:50 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com CC: editor@liberator.net My succint reply is I would gladly meet these men in person; I apologize for not loving reading and sending marathon e mails. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:31:33 EDT > > >>I have been undated by a surplus of E-mail that keeps me from other >important things.<< > >I appreciate that you are a busy man. However, Bill Morgan's is >representing your association and your cause (evangelism through creation >science) and his conduct is doing damage to both. > > >>I believe this is mostly game playing on your part. Bill Is a close >friend of mine and a man of integrity. He is a professional man and one to >be taken seriously.<< > >I, DWise1, am the individual who has been trying to talk with Bill, with no >success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only contributed his >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's conduct. > >Yes, Bill is a professional man, but his conduct on-line has not been >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his conduct >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to >legitimate questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit >teaches his recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" >article) or to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit >trail" is a set of false accusations against me and my character which he >has steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is not >acting in a professional manner. > >For three years, 1997 through 1998 and now this year, Mark has observed how >Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck one >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after another >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated question >which is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately >recognize that tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen >Bill make blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish >games, such as repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time >ignoring the answer that had already been given the first time -- like the >childish game he's playing now demanding information that I have already >given him, twice. > >Mark knows what he is talking about. His assessment of Bill, to which you >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all along. >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the actual >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the facts, he >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the restoration >of order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And >Bill has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his >agreement to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. > His posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at >the time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts >further doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his >actions. > >I do not think that Mark is entirely correct about Bill's motivation. >While Bill's strategy is anti-science, as evidenced by the anti-science and >anti-scientist themes of many of his articles, I do not believe that he is >doing so for material gain, since he gives books away and does not seem to >charge more than cost-of-materials-and-shipping for tapes, which he also >offers for free. Rather, he does seem to believe that he is promoting his >cause and his religion. However, I believe that there is also a lot of >ego and self-aggrandizement motivating Bill, what I've heard refered to as >"being a legend in his own mind." > >As for somebody who is "to be taken seriously", I'm afraid that Bill has >already destroyed that notion. In prior years, Bill had been very busy out >there in cyberspace distributing his long essay, "Creation vs. Evolution: >What is the Better Explanation?", in many newsgroups, several of which it >clearly did not belong in. Of course, it did not help matters much that it >was nearly unreadable because it was in word-processor format. This >generated a lot of newsgroup responses and emails that were sent to Bill, >reportedly none of which Bill ever bothered to respond to. One observer >described who Bill would post his huge essay, ignore all the responses, >then a few months later he would post it again and ignore all the responses >again. As a result, just about everybody Bill has a widely held reputation >for being just another crackpot creationist who has absolutely no idea what >he is talking about. I have not been able to find anybody who has tried to >talk seriously with Bill a! >bout his claims and is able to take him seriously. Most of them view Bill >as an idiot. > > >Which is what makes this your problem, Mr. Purcell. Your loyalty to your >friend is admirable. But you also have a duty to your cause (creationism) >and, as CSAOC President, to your organization. Bill Morgan is out there >representing creationism and the CSAOC. Bill's actions threaten that cause >and bring disgrace upon your organization. Does your personal loyalty to >Bill outweigh your duty? > > > >>If you want to end this mess, just end it.<< > >I am trying to end this mess, but Bill's preventing it. > >I had brought you into this discussion in the hope that you could help Bill >come to his senses. First he insulted my wife and me, then he started >accusing me of having insulted him and his wife. I showed him his insult >to us (though I doubt that he understands it), but he steadfastly refuses >to even say what he thinks I had said to insult him. As you have >witnessed, I have repeatedly told him that we can clear all this up quickly >by comparing what he thinks I had written with what I had actually written, >but first I need to know what he thinks I had written. As you have >witnessed, he refuses to say. > >In the meantime, you have also witnessed that Bill has requested the text >of certain messages. You have also witnessed that I immediately provided >him with the requested text AND I made the ENTIRE transcript of our >correspondence available both to him and to you and Mark. You have also >witnessed that Bill is repeating his request and making the blatantly false >claim that I will not fill his request. We know his claim is false because >you have seen for yourself that I gave him exactly what he had requested >and much much more. > >Now it becomes problematic. Is Bill playing yet another one of his >childish games? Or does Bill really not know what is going on? Is he >really unable to keep track of who he's talking with? Many of his >accusations refer to things that I have never said and never would say. > >Now he is also complaining that he "will nto repeat for the tenth time to >Mr Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin of energy, >origin of life questions." He has never asked me those questions, ever. >All this has been about for almost a month is that he has accused me of >having insulted him and I have been trying to find out what he is talking >about. > >Clearly, Bill is severely confused and losing touch with reality. Almost >everything that he claims I have done is a figment of his imagination. >Bill is stumbling. He needs help. > >Does your loyalty and friendship to Bill call for you to ignore him when he >stumbles? Or does it call for you to help him get back up and straighten >himself up? If you are unable or unwilling to help Bill, then could you at >least find somebody who will? > > >I definitely want this mess to end, but I cannot just walk away from it. I >need to get this matter resolved and I am doing what I can to get it >resolved. Bill is trying to keep that from happening. > > >>This childs play has gone far enough.<< > >Are you talking about this courtroom metaphor? You need to talk with Bill >about that, since he is the one who created it and invoked it. All I did >was to play along with him in the hope that he might provide us with the >information we need to resolve this mess. As you can see, Bill continues >to prevent that. > > >If you truly wish to hear no more about this, then let me know. In any >event, you will still receive replies to the other currently pending >messages. After that, you should hear no more. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 19:10:50 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f97.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.97]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 19:09:42 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:09:40 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.212 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:09:40 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.212] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:09:40 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2000 23:09:40.0957 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF8E58D0:01C01532] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 16:12:21 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com 1) the 1950's 2) The range of a B 29. I give you my word I did not look up the answers. How did I do? Awesome stories about your dad! >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:36:32 EDT > > >>It is depressing, but not shocking how little Americans know about WOrkd >War 2.<< > >It is depressing how little Americans know about history, period. Why, did >you know that most Americans actually believe that America was founded with >the motto, "In God We Trust"? Or that most Americans (at least those under >50) believe that the Pledge of Allegience had always contained the words, >"under God"? Unbelievable! > >BTW, do you know when "under God" was added to the Pledge, when "In God We >Trust" became mandatory on our money, and when it became the National >Motto? Please answer first before you look it up. > >The other night while our younger son was watching History Channel, I >pointed out to him how little programming of that kind there was when I was >his age and how he is much more aware of a wider range of historical and >scientific topics than I ever could have been at his age. PBS was just >getting started, but most TVs didn't have UHF tuners. And when they did, >the main attraction was televised bullfights on the Mexican stations. The >networks had the occasional special documentary, but they were few and far >between. > > >>I would like the court to note that Judge Purcell was part of the Iwo >Jima campaign.<< > >Laudable, but immaterial to this case. > >Also immaterial is the fact that my father was a CB on Saipan. Not only >was he part of the invasion force, but he was also in the second trench >from the beach waiting to repell the Japanese assault to retake the island. > He described sitting there watching the smoke from the Japanese task >force as it neared the island ... , then turned south. It was yet another >Japanese feint to mask their real objective; I never learned what that was. > >The CBs were put in those front trenches because their CO had volunteered >them. He wanted the glory. Later, the CO was assigned to the Iwo Jima >invasion force. Every man in his Saipan command sincerely hoped that he >would get the glory that he so dearly wanted [grin]. > >Now for a history quiz. What was the strategic significance of Saipan? It >was not simply a part of an overall stepping-stone strategy. You might >want to consult a map to look at a nearby place name. HINT: it is a main >reason why we needed to take Iwo Jima. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (rly-yg05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.5]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 19:12:21 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f187.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.187]) by rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 19:12:12 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:12:11 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.212 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:12:11 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.212] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 23:12:11 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2000 23:12:11.0789 (UTC) FILETIME=[39757BD0:01C01533] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 17:08:34 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com wrote: <> I agree entirely with this view. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (rly-ye03.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.200]) by air-ye01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:08:34 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:08:27 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA84006; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:08:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <013d01c0153b$42a46e20$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: , Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 17:10:35 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: DWise1@aol.com Okay, you convinced me to follow along but I will refrain from adding my two-cents worth since it is already clear where I stand on these issues. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Sorry to hear you're dropping out. Would it be alright for me to CC: you when I send Bill good information, like the truth about the creationist teacher, Roger DeHart, for whom he was drumming up some sympathy for last month? One of the problems of trying to deal with Bill is that he doesn't seem to have much of a grasp on reality. Did you see one of his latest messages to me? >Subj: Sizzler >Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 2:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com >CC: editor@liberator.net, EALPURCELL@juno.com >I place my hand over my keyboard and type little. > > ... >I apologize to the court and will nto repeat for >the tenth time to Mr Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin >of energy, origin of life questions. "Tenth time"? Bill has never ever asked me that question. Not even once. Oh, he tried some of his other "unanswerable", "rabbit trail" questions on me before, as I have documented in my Morgan Pages [http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/questions.html], but never that one. And Bill has most certain never ever said anything to me about not answering that question, which he had never asked me to begin with. Not once and most certainly not ten times. And besides, that isn't even what has been going on for the past few weeks. It looks like Bill has left merely imagining things and has moved on to full-blown hallucinations. He has gone beyond merely not knowing what is going on around him and has started to vacation in his own private little universe. Gee, Mark, you're leaving already and we're just now getting to the weird part. PS You will still get a few more replies from the pending messages CC:'d to you. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:10:35 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:10:06 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA84192 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:10:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <014201c0153b$80183de0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:11:25 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 21:52:14 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com willingly offer my precious time to meet you at Denny's. I am a nice guy. bUT mY wife is still a saint. i object! >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now >offer to you >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:34:58 EDT > > >>Thank you Mr. Wise my email is hereby submitted as exhibit A.<< > >Huh? What are you trying to say here? What email are you talking about? > > >>My wife is a saint.<< > >OK, Bill, now try to think here. I applied a conditional to that >statement. By saying that I have reached the stated conclusion, you are >also confirming that the stated condition is true. > >The conditional statement in question was: "If this is also how you act in >person, then she must be a saint to be able to put up with you." > >Therefore, you have confirmed what I had suspected, that you act in person >the same way that you act on-line. That means that also in person you >dodge every question you can, lay down your "rabbit trails", make false >accusations, do not pay attention to what is going on, and go into >histrionics (which means putting on an over-emotional act, what we used to >call our younger son doing his "Sarah Burnhart" when he was a >pre-schooler). Now we can add to that the tendency to hallucinate into >existence events that never actually happened (re: your "Sizzler" message >and my reply thereto). > >No adult can long tolerate such behavior from another adult without a drink >winding up in somebody's lap, or worse. Obviously, until you can adopt >more mature behavior and a firmer grasp on reality, a personal meeting is >out of the question. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (rly-ye04.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.201]) by air-ye03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:52:14 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f210.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.210]) by rly-ye04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:52:03 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:52:03 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.199 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:52:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.199] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:52:02 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2000 04:52:03.0074 (UTC) FILETIME=[B39CA620:01C01562] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 21:54:27 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com Meeting at Dennys would have resolved it. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:37:19 EDT > > >>@@@@@ I confess I skim over very long e mails.<< > >Which could partially explain why you don't know what's going on, why you >cannot keep straight who said what, and why you keep imagining things. You >need to read what is written and not imagine what they might say. > > >>But I remember the email in question, heretofore the Dennys e mail.<< > >But what you remember never happened. That is part of the problem: you >read very little of what there is, you remember even less, and then you >fill in the gaps with your imagination. Too much of what you "remember" >never happened. > >What you "remember" is inviting my wife and me to join your wife and you at >Denny's. Never happened. Rather, you did invite my wife and me to join >you at Denny's, but there was no mention of your wife. The first time your >wife was mentioned was when you insulted my wife and me a few messages >downstream. Subsequently, I never made any mention of your wife until you >accused me of having insulted her, and even then it was just to say that I >had not insulted her. Everything escalated after that point. > >I again point out that I sent you the closest messages I could find to what >you had requested: your Dennys invitation and my reply thereto. I again >point out that sent it to you twice, because of an addressing error in >CC:ing it to our witnesses. I again point out that I provided you with the >ENTIRE transcript on 21 August 2000, more than a week ago. > >I also again point out that if you would only tell me what you "remember" >be saying in insult to your wife and you, then I could help you find the >messages that your "memory" is based on. Thus we could clear all this up >in very short time. I believe that this is the fourteenth or fifteenth >request I have made to you. > > >>All I ask is Mr WIse apologize for insulting my wife then we can discuss >World War 2.<< > >I cannot apologize for something of which I have no knowledge. Not only >would such an apology be worthless and hypocritical, but it would also lend >credence to something which I believe had never happened. As I had >mentioned in an earlier message today, I had learned some positive things >from my father, such as honesty, honor, and love of truth and of learning. >To concede something that I believe not to be true would violate those >ideals. > >Now, if you could please tell me what it is that you "remember" me to have >said in insulting your wife, then we could investigate the matter, see what >I had actually written, and determine whether it was an insult directed at >her or not. > >If I had in fact insulted your wife, then I will apologize for it. You >have my word on that. > >But if I had NOT in fact insulted your wife, then I will expect your >apology for having falsely accused me. > >In either event, I fully expect you to offer your most sincere apology to >Mark and to Mr. Purcell for your behavior. For having stubbornly prevented >the rapid resolution of this matter and for causing it to escalate so far >out of proportion. And for the excessive acrimony that you have caused. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:54:27 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f58.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.58]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:53:52 2000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:53:50 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.199 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:53:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.199] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:53:50 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2000 04:53:50.0827 (UTC) FILETIME=[F3D673B0:01C01562] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 02-Sep-00 21:55:39 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com 15 e mails a day 9average0 makes it tough. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:38:40 EDT > > >>Wow youre old! I thought you were like 23 years old!<< > >Gee, what would have given you that idea? > >Let's see. Could it have been that I had mentioned that my son was in the >high school choir? Or my warning you from personal experience what you >should expect to happen to your body in the next decade? Or my telling >about my experience with the Jesus Freak movement early on in college >around 1970? Gee, what else could you have thought? > >Bill, you need to learn to pay attention to what is going on around you. >You also need to try to keep track of whom you are talking with. > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:55:39 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f221.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.221]) by rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:55:19 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:55:17 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.199 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:55:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.199] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:55:17 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2000 04:55:17.0431 (UTC) FILETIME=[27752C70:01C01563] ########################################### Subj: Re: Sizzler Date: 02-Sep-00 21:58:30 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com I object! Name calling! How did life originate >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Sizzler >Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 15:40:42 EDT > > > >>I apologize to the court and will nto repeat for the tenth time to Mr >Wise that he willnot answer my origin of matter, origin of energy, origin >of life questions.<< > >WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? Bill, YOU ARE HALLUCINATING!! You've >totally lost it now! > >"tenth time"?? There hasn't even been a FIRST time. You had NEVER EVER >asked ME that question! EVER! You have asked me a lot of other questions >and I answered almost all of them (about 23 out of 25 questions, or 92%). >But never that one! > >[NOTE: BTW, the two questions I did not answer were: > 1. "Would you like a cop of the video and audio tape of the debate for >cost?" > 2. "Would you like a shot at eastman? Do you have the desire to debate >him?" >] > >OK, Bill. You tell us EXACTLY when you had asked ME that question and when >those TEN TIMES were that you claim to have had to repeatedly ask me for an >answer. TELL US! > >Because that is the most blatant falsehood you have ever tried to foist off >on us! That makes it obvious to us all that you either are not dealing >with us honestly or you are not playing with a full deck. > >[NOTE: The first time that I have ever seen Bill ask that question in an >email addressed to me is in the email that Bill sent 3 minutes, 24 seconds >AFTER the one to which I am now replying and in which he accuses me of not >answering that question. And in the message where he asks the question, he >specifically directs the question to MARK, not to me. Go figure.] > > >>I can not keep banging myhead against proverbial walls and running down >rabbit trails trying to get him to gvie a cogent answer.<< > >Bill, we adults find it very irritating when somebody plays that childish >game of yours where you twist and distort everything to become the opposite >of what it really is. The record clearly shows that throughout our >correspondence YOU have been the one who has erected obstacles to >meaningful discussion. YOU have been the one laying down "rabbit trails" >with your "unanswerable questions" (almost all of which I DID answer), >whereas *I* have repeatedly tried to keep the discussion on target. I have >given you cogent, intelligent, and intelligible answers, which YOU have >either ignored or just refused to read (as you now admit). > >Here again are the facts and figures from the two years of our prior >correspondence: > >Bill's Questions to Me: > Answered: 23 > Unanswered: 2 > Percent Answered: 23/25 = 92% > >My Questions to Bill: > Answered: 12 > Unanswered: 65 > Asked Repeated and Not Answered: 18 > Percent Answered: 12/(12+65+18) = 12/95 = 12.6% > >Also please bear in mind that I purposefully was very lenient and generous >in arriving at the 12.6% figure for Bill and very strict and stingey in >arriving at the 92% figure for myself. > >Bill, you need to learn to face facts, not continually try to escape them. > >And please, please stop acting like an idiot. Your choir may think you're >great when you preach to them, but that's because they have not had to deal >with your nonsense. I have read what others in cyberspace had to say about >trying to deal with you; the consensus is that you are an idiot. If you >know of one of your opponents out there who doesn't think that, then please >let me know and put me in touch with him. Now Mark has also called you an >idiot because of the way you have been acting. We know that you are not an >idiot, so why do you insist on acting like one? Believe me, it is not cute >nor is it the least bit amusing. > > > >>Lets meet at Sizzler..its quiet there.<< > >No, it wouldn't be. Because I'd be there with somebody who acts like an >idiot. No way am I going to spoil my digestion by having to put up with >your nonsense. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) by air-ye01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:58:30 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f58.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.58]) by rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 00:58:11 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 2 Sep 2000 21:58:11 -0700 Received: from 152.163.206.199 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:58:11 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.206.199] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Sizzler Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 04:58:11 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2000 04:58:11.0110 (UTC) FILETIME=[8EFA7C60:01C01563] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 03-Sep-00 08:11:39 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's poor character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader is not the least of all surprising. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious loser. >From: "Mark" >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > wrote: > ><no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only contributed his >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's conduct. > ><professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his conduct >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to >legitimate >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit teaches his >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" article) or >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit trail" is a >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is not >acting in a professional manner. > ><how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck one >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after another >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated question >which >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately recognize that >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish games, such >as >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring the >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the childish game >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given him, >twice. > ><you >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all along. >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the actual >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the facts, he >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the restoration >of >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And Bill >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his >agreement >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. His >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at the >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts further >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his actions.>> > >I agree entirely with this view. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 11:11:39 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 11:11:11 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA60769; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:11:09 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <01a401c015b9$61557f20$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 03-Sep-00 09:02:18 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number of other places. Does he know that I'm not gay? If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you A religious leader? I never claimed such. You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not personally attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. >From: "Mark" >To: >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's poor >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader is not >the >least of all surprising. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Morgan >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious loser. > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: , > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > wrote: > > > ><with > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only contributed >his > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's >conduct. > > > >< >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his conduct > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to > >legitimate > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit teaches >his > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" article) >or > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit trail" is >a > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is not > >acting in a professional manner. > > > >< >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck one > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after >another > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated question > >which > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately recognize >that > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish games, such > >as > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring the > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the childish >game > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given him, > >twice. > > > >< >you > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all >along. > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the actual > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the facts, >he > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the restoration > >of > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And Bill > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his > >agreement > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. His > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at the > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts further > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his actions.>> > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (rly-zd01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.225]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:02:18 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-zd01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Sep 2000 12:01:49 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA65175; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:01:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <01ad01c015c0$6ff4eb40$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 03-Sep-00 21:43:08 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: editor@liberator.net CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com You seem to complain that I am not listening and that I do not care, yet when I offer to meet and eat and chat you trivialize the attempts as a homosexual offer. I am not, I have never have any gay inclinations. The trajedty here is your fear of seriously listening to a Creationist who knows science very well. It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a Christian who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is typical. So when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share your fears. Bill >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Morgan" >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 > >This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number of other >places. Does he know that I'm not gay? > >If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Morgan >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you > > >A religious leader? I never claimed such. > >You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not >personally >attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > > > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's poor > >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader is not > >the > >least of all surprising. > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > > > > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious loser. > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: , > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >< >with > > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year > > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only contributed > >his > > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's > >conduct. > > > > > >< > >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his >conduct > > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to > > >legitimate > > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit teaches > >his > > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" >article) > >or > > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit trail" >is > >a > > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has > > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is not > > >acting in a professional manner. > > > > > ><observed > > >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck one > > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after > >another > > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated question > > >which > > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately recognize > >that > > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make > > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish games, >such > > >as > > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring the > > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the childish > >game > > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given him, > > >twice. > > > > > ><which > > >you > > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all > >along. > > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the >actual > > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the >facts, > >he > > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the >restoration > > >of > > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And >Bill > > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his > > >agreement > > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. His > > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at >the > > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts >further > > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his >actions.>> > > > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Sep 2000 00:43:08 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f118.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.118]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Sep 2000 00:42:39 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 21:42:38 -0700 Received: from 152.163.207.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 04 Sep 2000 04:42:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.207.196] From: "Bill Morgan" To: editor@liberator.net Cc: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 04:42:38 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Sep 2000 04:42:38.0495 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D827AF0:01C0162A] ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 04-Sep-00 09:22:12 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Bill Morgan , you wrote: "You seem to complain that I am not listening and that I do not care, yet when I offer to meet and eat and chat you trivialize the attempts as a homosexual offer. I am not, I have never have any gay inclinations." There are a number of religious people -- or at least people whom claim to be religious -- who are gay. It's easy to lump you in with that bunch. "The trajedty here is your fear of seriously listening to a Creationist who knows science very well. It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a Christian who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is typical. So when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share your fears." Bill, I dread being bored to tears by yet another religious zealot. It's nothing more than that. Have a good life. Be warned, if you continue to pursue religious discussion with me, I plan on going into insult mode. It's clear that you have absolutely nothing to offer except a few chuckles. = ) The people who cling to religion are the people who need it most. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Morgan" >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 > >This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number of other >places. Does he know that I'm not gay? > >If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Morgan >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you > > >A religious leader? I never claimed such. > >You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not >personally >attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > > > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's poor > >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader is not > >the > >least of all surprising. > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > > > > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious loser. > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: , > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >< >with > > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year > > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only contributed > >his > > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's > >conduct. > > > > > >< > >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his >conduct > > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to > > >legitimate > > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit teaches > >his > > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" >article) > >or > > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit trail" >is > >a > > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has > > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is not > > >acting in a professional manner. > > > > > ><observed > > >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck one > > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after > >another > > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated question > > >which > > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately recognize > >that > > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make > > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish games, >such > > >as > > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring the > > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the childish > >game > > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given him, > > >twice. > > > > > ><which > > >you > > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all > >along. > > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the >actual > > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the >facts, > >he > > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the >restoration > > >of > > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And >Bill > > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his > > >agreement > > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. His > > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at >the > > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts >further > > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his >actions.>> > > > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:22:12 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:21:41 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA92954; Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:21:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <01c101c0168c$6391b5a0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:21:24 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: JFK <<---- huh? Date: 05-Sep-00 18:54:44 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Billy wrote: <> You play the role of the typical religious zealot (alias clown) quite well. Your vocabulary is centered upon the following terms: 'afraid', 'closed-minded', 'scared' and 'fears'. The next thing you know you'll be offering me punch at a gathering after you change your name to 'Jim Jones'. Bill, you're an idiot. It's that simple. If you were a pimple on my body, you would have been popped and cleansed long ago. = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Morgan" >CC: , >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to >you >Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:21:24 -0500 > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > >"You seem to complain that I am not listening and that I do not care, yet >when I offer to meet and eat and chat you trivialize the attempts as a >homosexual offer. I am not, I have never have any gay inclinations." > >There are a number of religious people -- or at least people whom claim to >be religious -- who are gay. It's easy to lump you in with that bunch. > >"The trajedty here is your fear of seriously listening to a Creationist who >knows science very well. It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a Christian >who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is typical. So >when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its >ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share your >fears." > >Bill, I dread being bored to tears by yet another religious zealot. It's >nothing more than that. > >Have a good life. Be warned, if you continue to pursue religious >discussion >with me, I plan on going into insult mode. It's clear that you have >absolutely nothing to offer except a few chuckles. > >= ) > >The people who cling to religion are the people who need it most. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Morgan" > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 > > > >This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number of >other > >places. Does he know that I'm not gay? > > > >If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. > > > >= ) > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > > > > > >A religious leader? I never claimed such. > > > >You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not > >personally > >attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > > > > > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's poor > > >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader is >not > > >the > > >least of all surprising. > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Bill Morgan > > >To: > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > > > > > > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious >loser. > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > >To: , > > > >CC: , > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer > >to > > > >you > > > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >< > >with > > > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year > > > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only >contributed > > >his > > > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's > > >conduct. > > > > > > > ><been > > > >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his > >conduct > > > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to > > > >legitimate > > > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit >teaches > > >his > > > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" > >article) > > >or > > > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit >trail" > >is > > >a > > > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has > > > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is >not > > > >acting in a professional manner. > > > > > > > >< >observed > > > >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck >one > > > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after > > >another > > > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated >question > > > >which > > > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately >recognize > > >that > > > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make > > > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish games, > >such > > > >as > > > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring >the > > > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the >childish > > >game > > > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given him, > > > >twice. > > > > > > > >< >which > > > >you > > > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all > > >along. > > > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the > >actual > > > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the > >facts, > > >he > > > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the > >restoration > > > >of > > > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. And > >Bill > > > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his > > > >agreement > > > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. >His > > > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false at > >the > > > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts > >further > > > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his > >actions.>> > > > > > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > > > > > >Mark > > > >The Liberator > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by air-yd04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:54:44 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:54:10 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA95416; Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:54:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <001001c017a5$85f5e020$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: JFK <<---- huh? Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:23 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Citizen Kane Date: 06-Sep-00 18:24:45 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Bill Morgan , you wrote: "I think pimples are important and I am important to you." You are about as important as a bucket of feces. Both you and the bucket of feces drum up the same amount of chuckles. "A pimple is an indication you have a problem; an in grown hair, too much greasy food, not enough washing. A pimple tells you to take better care of yourself." You tell me that religious idiots are great at being the brunt of jokes. "You can pop the pimple, but that does not alleviate your problem. You sould either wash better, pluck out the in grown hair or stop eating those McDonald fries in the extra large size." Only a religious idiot could ramble on about pimples. It's as facinating as the fictitious character named Jesus. "I am honored to be your pimple." Someone like you would be honored to be a zit. I'm not surprised. "I indicate to you you are lying to yourself and fighting a losing battle against God." How can I fight fiction? "You have richly demonstrated your fight is emotion driven and intellectually driven and I really hope you come to terms that cause you emotionally to deny truth and harvest fruits that are bitter." You couldn't receive a valid view if your life depended on it. You are a source of humor. Nothing more... "God is truth, truth leads to peace of mind. Don't pop pimples, be thankful for them and cure the root problem." I'm thankful for nuts like you who like to be called 'zits'. It's a real side-splitter. "Jesus loves you." I'm sure Juan, Jose and Alfredo like me too. Thanks for the laughs. Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Morgan" >CC: , >Subject: Re: JFK <<---- huh? >Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:23 -0500 > >Billy wrote: > ><I >wanted and offered to discuss science with him and he keeps talking about >"religion." Since he is not stupid, he must be afraid to discuss science >because he obviously can read and see where I offered to discuss science. >Since he is not stupid, he deflects the science discussion to religion. >Don't be closed minded Mark. If your atheist faith is defendable >scientifically you would not be so scared. Analyze your fears and deal >with >them.>> > >You play the role of the typical religious zealot (alias clown) quite well. >Your vocabulary is centered upon the following terms: 'afraid', >'closed-minded', 'scared' and 'fears'. The next thing you know you'll be >offering me punch at a gathering after you change your name to 'Jim Jones'. > >Bill, you're an idiot. It's that simple. If you were a pimple on my body, >you would have been popped and cleansed long ago. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Morgan" > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to > >you > >Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:21:24 -0500 > > > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > > > >"You seem to complain that I am not listening and that I do not care, yet > >when I offer to meet and eat and chat you trivialize the attempts as a > >homosexual offer. I am not, I have never have any gay inclinations." > > > >There are a number of religious people -- or at least people whom claim >to > >be religious -- who are gay. It's easy to lump you in with that bunch. > > > >"The trajedty here is your fear of seriously listening to a Creationist >who > >knows science very well. It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a >Christian > >who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is typical. >So > >when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its > >ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share your > >fears." > > > >Bill, I dread being bored to tears by yet another religious zealot. It's > >nothing more than that. > > > >Have a good life. Be warned, if you continue to pursue religious > >discussion > >with me, I plan on going into insult mode. It's clear that you have > >absolutely nothing to offer except a few chuckles. > > > >= ) > > > >The people who cling to religion are the people who need it most. > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 > > > > > >This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number of > >other > > >places. Does he know that I'm not gay? > > > > > >If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Bill Morgan > > >To: > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > > > > > > > >A religious leader? I never claimed such. > > > > > >You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not > > >personally > > >attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > >To: > > > >CC: , > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer > >to > > > >you > > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > > > > > > > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's >poor > > > >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader is > >not > > > >the > > > >least of all surprising. > > > > > > > >Mark > > > >The Liberator > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Bill Morgan > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer > >to > > > >you > > > > > > > > > > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious > >loser. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > >To: , > > > > >CC: , > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now >offer > > >to > > > > >you > > > > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ><Bill, > > > >with > > > > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year > > > > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only > >contributed > > > >his > > > > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's > > > >conduct. > > > > > > > > > >< >been > > > > >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his > > >conduct > > > > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to > > > > >legitimate > > > > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit > >teaches > > > >his > > > > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" > > >article) > > > >or > > > > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit > >trail" > > >is > > > >a > > > > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has > > > > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill is > >not > > > > >acting in a professional manner. > > > > > > > > > >< > >observed > > > > >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill duck > >one > > > > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question after > > > >another > > > > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated > >question > > > > >which > > > > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately > >recognize > > > >that > > > > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill make > > > > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish >games, > > >such > > > > >as > > > > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time ignoring > >the > > > > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the > >childish > > > >game > > > > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given >him, > > > > >twice. > > > > > > > > > >< > >which > > > > >you > > > > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games all > > > >along. > > > > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the > > >actual > > > > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the > > >facts, > > > >he > > > > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the > > >restoration > > > > >of > > > > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. >And > > >Bill > > > > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including his > > > > >agreement > > > > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. > >His > > > > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be false >at > > >the > > > > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts > > >further > > > > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his > > >actions.>> > > > > > > > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > >The Liberator > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:24:45 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:24:08 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA78835; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:24:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <001401c0186a$7fdf1420$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Citizen Kane Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:25:24 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Date: 06-Sep-00 20:46:18 Pacific Daylight Time From: billyjack321@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) Next Month's Meeting: Genesis, Animals and Evolution Who: Dr. Robert Cole When: Saturday September 9, 2000 @ 7 PM Where: Santa Ana Calvary Church, 1010 N Tustin, Samsvick Chapel (look for the Big White Steeple) Room S7. (Park in the North Parking Lot off of Wellington Street) Dr. Robert Cole has spoke for us in the past and he did such a good job we are having him back. Dr. Cole has earned a Ph.D. in Semitic Languages from UCLA - those Semitic Languages are Hebrew, Akkadian and Aramaic. He will present what he has called one of his favorite lessons. It will address how opposite are the views of atheists to the teachings of Genesis chapter 1. Genesis teaches the high importance God puts on marriage, which is often treated casually by today’s society. Hear is a quick witnessing tip. I was on an airplane and a stewardess was reading a book. I asked her what it was and she said a book on marriage. I got excited and helpful and told her I had read the greatest book on marriage! Naturally, she asked what book it was that I had read and I told her the Bible! Since God created people and marriage, doesn’t it make sense to seek his counsel? Dr. Cole will also talk about how some people place animals over humans. He will talk about how the views of animal’s “rights” extremists contradict Genesis. Dr. Cole will also discuss the differences between Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2 (I said differences, not contradictions), the naming of animals, the purpose of Creation and the deception of Evolutionism. Please join us and tell your church about us. Our meetings are free. LAST MONTHS MEETING: Wow! Dr Mace Baker gave a great lesson on dinosaurs and the Bible. I have rewritten my review on it several times, but it is press time, and it is not perfect yet, so you will get it next month. As a teaser, please read Genesis 1:21 and see what your Bible says about the “great sea monsters.” Next month you will see Dr Baker’s comments on them. WHAT SHOLD A STUDENT DO WHEN TAUGHT EVOLUTIONISM? There I sat during the review session for my Astronomy class final. The teacher said, “be prepared to provide an answer on where life originated.” I sighed. What should I do? I raised my hand and he called on me. I asked: “Should we give the answer on where life originated according to our textbook?” A woman in the row in front on me spun and asked: “is that a religious question?” I answered and said “no, evolutionists disagree among themselves where life originated, I want to know which answer to give on the test.” The teacher then said to give the book’s answer, and then said, “we know life began in the water.” Here is the dilemma. I have studied the origin of life enough to have the ability to embarrass my teacher in front of the class, and show that life did not originate in water…it is impossible. But here is what I chose to do, and suggest Christian kids consider it: 1) Do not fight with your teacher or show any disrespect 2) Make it clear, politely, there are flaws with evolutionism 3) Do your serious discussions with classmates and teachers outside of the class. If you fight with a teacher in class, they have one option: fighting back. It will probably be more “heat than light.” If you respectfully ask polite questions such as “what is the evidence for that?” you can really plant seeds. After the review, when everyone had left I talked with the teacher. After friendly chitchat, I posed this question: “If I could show you that life could not possibly have originated in water, would you change your mind?” He offered no reply except to say that he “was not a chemist.” {Quick lesson: Amino acids form bonds called “peptide bonds.” A long chain of amino acids is what makes up proteins, which are essential for life. Peptide bonds can form, or be broken, they are reversible chemical reactions. The reaction can go either way. The Law of Mass Action is a basic law of chemistry. It states a reversible reaction will never go in the direction in the direction where a product of that reaction exists in excess amounts.} I told the teacher this, then told him that a product of peptide bonding is water! If water forms when the peptide bonds are formed, the law of mass action states they can not form in water! Peptide bonds break up in water! Atheists ignore this basic chemistry, and students are lied to (again). So if water is not where life originated, it must have been on the land correct? Wrong! Guess what oxygen does to peptide bonds? Breaks them up! Atheists know this and thus tell students, there was no oxygen when life formed. That means there was no ozone layer, and guess what Ultra Violet radiation does to peptide bonds? You guessed it, they break them up. These truths and facts of science should be taught to every student, but atheists fear these truths of science. It is tough for students in a class. I encourage you on a test to give the teacher the answers they want, but outside the class politely and respectfully talk with them. RETRACTION: Last month I stated a skeptic friend of mine did not want to attend due to a fear of an "Inquisition." I thought and implied in the newsletter, he feared an Inquisition from us. The fact is he said he feared a Spanish Inquisition from his wife who is Hispanic, and who opposes his spending any time on the creation/evolution issue. (She should see the many long e-mails he composes on Creation vs. Evolution!) We at the Orange County Creation Science Association strive to be accurate and honest in all our reporting to you. It is witnessing time on College Campuses! If you want to make a difference in some people’s lives and tell them they are not the result of mutated bacteria, come join us in witnessing to college students. We politely talk to them and give them free material. Call me (Bill Morgan) at 714 898-8331 if you want to join us. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (rly-yg04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.4]) by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:46:18 -0400 Received: from hotmail.com (f69.law6.hotmail.com [216.32.241.69]) by rly-yg04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:45:44 -0400 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:45:43 -0700 Received: from 152.163.207.211 by lw6fd.law6.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 07 Sep 2000 03:45:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [152.163.207.211] From: "Bill Morgan" Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:45:42 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2000 03:45:43.0366 (UTC) FILETIME=[192C6660:01C0187E] ########################################### Subj: Re: Blocked Field Goal Date: 07-Sep-00 21:45:32 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Bill Morgan , you wrote: "Don't blame me for Madeline Murray O'hare." I blame your mother for conceiving you, as does your father. "She's your role model." I enjoy Carl Sagan's lifework much, much more! "How did life originate?" What's your definition of life? Please do not point to your own pathetic existence as an example. Where/when/how did God originate? Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Morgan" >CC: , >Subject: Re: Citizen Kane >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:25:24 -0500 > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > >"I think pimples are important and I am important to you." > >You are about as important as a bucket of feces. Both you and the bucket >of >feces drum up the same amount of chuckles. > >"A pimple is an indication you have a problem; an in grown hair, too much >greasy food, not enough washing. A pimple tells you to take better care of >yourself." > >You tell me that religious idiots are great at being the brunt of jokes. > >"You can pop the pimple, but that does not alleviate your problem. You >sould either wash better, pluck out the in grown hair or stop eating those >McDonald fries in the extra large size." > >Only a religious idiot could ramble on about pimples. It's as facinating >as >the fictitious character named Jesus. > >"I am honored to be your pimple." > >Someone like you would be honored to be a zit. I'm not surprised. > >"I indicate to you you are lying to yourself and fighting a losing battle >against God." > >How can I fight fiction? > >"You have richly demonstrated your fight is emotion driven and >intellectually driven and I really hope you come >to terms that cause you emotionally to deny truth and harvest fruits that >are bitter." > >You couldn't receive a valid view if your life depended on it. You are a >source of humor. Nothing more... > >"God is truth, truth leads to peace of mind. Don't pop pimples, be >thankful >for them and cure the root problem." > >I'm thankful for nuts like you who like to be called 'zits'. It's a real >side-splitter. > >"Jesus loves you." > >I'm sure Juan, Jose and Alfredo like me too. Thanks for the laughs. > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Morgan" > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: JFK <<---- huh? > >Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:23 -0500 > > > >Billy wrote: > > > ><knows > >I > >wanted and offered to discuss science with him and he keeps talking about > >"religion." Since he is not stupid, he must be afraid to discuss science > >because he obviously can read and see where I offered to discuss science. > >Since he is not stupid, he deflects the science discussion to religion. > >Don't be closed minded Mark. If your atheist faith is defendable > >scientifically you would not be so scared. Analyze your fears and deal > >with > >them.>> > > > >You play the role of the typical religious zealot (alias clown) quite >well. > >Your vocabulary is centered upon the following terms: 'afraid', > >'closed-minded', 'scared' and 'fears'. The next thing you know you'll be > >offering me punch at a gathering after you change your name to 'Jim >Jones'. > > > >Bill, you're an idiot. It's that simple. If you were a pimple on my >body, > >you would have been popped and cleansed long ago. > > > >= ) > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer >to > > >you > > >Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:21:24 -0500 > > > > > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > > > > > >"You seem to complain that I am not listening and that I do not care, >yet > > >when I offer to meet and eat and chat you trivialize the attempts as a > > >homosexual offer. I am not, I have never have any gay inclinations." > > > > > >There are a number of religious people -- or at least people whom claim > >to > > >be religious -- who are gay. It's easy to lump you in with that bunch. > > > > > >"The trajedty here is your fear of seriously listening to a Creationist > >who > > >knows science very well. It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a > >Christian > > >who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is typical. > >So > > >when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its > > >ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share >your > > >fears." > > > > > >Bill, I dread being bored to tears by yet another religious zealot. >It's > > >nothing more than that. > > > > > >Have a good life. Be warned, if you continue to pursue religious > > >discussion > > >with me, I plan on going into insult mode. It's clear that you have > > >absolutely nothing to offer except a few chuckles. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >The people who cling to religion are the people who need it most. > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > > >CC: , > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer > >to > > > >you > > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 > > > > > > > >This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number of > > >other > > > >places. Does he know that I'm not gay? > > > > > > > >If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. > > > > > > > >= ) > > > > > > > >Mark > > > >The Liberator > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: Bill Morgan > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer > >to > > > >you > > > > > > > > > > > >A religious leader? I never claimed such. > > > > > > > >You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not > > > >personally > > > >attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > >To: > > > > >CC: , > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now >offer > > >to > > > > >you > > > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill Morgan's > >poor > > > > >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious leader >is > > >not > > > > >the > > > > >least of all surprising. > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > >The Liberator > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > >From: Bill Morgan > > > > >To: > > > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now >offer > > >to > > > > >you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a gracious > > >loser. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > > >To: , > > > > > >CC: , > > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now > >offer > > > >to > > > > > >you > > > > > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >< >Bill, > > > > >with > > > > > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the three-year > > > > > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only > > >contributed > > > > >his > > > > > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at Bill's > > > > >conduct. > > > > > > > > > > > ><not > > >been > > > > > >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but his > > > >conduct > > > > > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard response to > > > > > >legitimate > > > > > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he explicit > > >teaches > > > > >his > > > > > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques #3" > > > >article) > > > > >or > > > > > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his "rabbit > > >trail" > > > >is > > > > >a > > > > > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he has > > > > > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, Bill >is > > >not > > > > > >acting in a professional manner. > > > > > > > > > > > >< > > >observed > > > > > >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen Bill >duck > > >one > > > > > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question >after > > > > >another > > > > > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated > > >question > > > > > >which > > > > > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately > > >recognize > > > > >that > > > > > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen Bill >make > > > > > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish > >games, > > > >such > > > > > >as > > > > > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time >ignoring > > >the > > > > > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the > > >childish > > > > >game > > > > > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already given > >him, > > > > > >twice. > > > > > > > > > > > ><to > > > >which > > > > > >you > > > > > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing games >all > > > > >along. > > > > > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of the > > > >actual > > > > > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid the > > > >facts, > > > > >he > > > > > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the > > > >restoration > > > > > >of > > > > > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up matters. > >And > > > >Bill > > > > > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, including >his > > > > > >agreement > > > > > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as well. > > >His > > > > > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be >false > >at > > > >the > > > > > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, casts > > > >further > > > > > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in his > > > >actions.>> > > > > > > > > > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > > >The Liberator > > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Sep 2000 00:45:32 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Sep 2000 00:44:45 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA89891; Thu, 7 Sep 2000 23:44:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <000001c0194f$b24a52e0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Blocked Field Goal Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:18:22 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 09-Sep-00 15:37:12 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com Well, Bill, since you are still sending these messages to Mr. Purcell, my reply must also. >>My succint reply is I would gladly meet these men in person; I apologize for not loving reading and sending marathon e mails.<< Immaterial and no excuse for your behavior. And another bit of "rabbit trailing" trying to divert attention away from the real problem, which is your unprofessional, evasive ,and dishonest conduct on-line. As well as your acting like an idiot most of the time. Besides, "not sending marathon e mails"? Bill, don't you even remember what you had done?! You had taken your 53,760-byte essay, in Word6 format, and spammed it repeatedly over several newsgroups. Those messages were ELEVEN SEGMENTS LONG! Because of the binary codes in the Word6 format, they were garbled! Most of the newsgroups it was posted in were totally unrelated. These included scientific newsgroups intended for discussion of scientific topics by professional scientists; your essay most certainly did not belong there and it was made clear to you that it was very unwelcome. These postings generated a lot of reponses to you (especially from the professional football newsgroups that others spammed it to), of which it is reported that you IGNORED ALL OF THOSE RESPONSES. Then after a short while, you would spam it yet again! With all the problems of before. And yet again you would ignore all the responses! And you reportedly did this repeatedly! Just what DO you call such irresponsible behavior? It certainly looks like "marathon e mails" to me. BTW, folks, early on I informed Bill of the problems caused by the document's Word6 format and he thanked me for the advice. Over a year later, he was still distributing it in Word6 format. Also, on 13 Feb 1999 I left Bill a guestbook message that there were several "typos" on his sight, particularly on the last page of his "Weird Tour". I reminded him of them again on 11 July 2000 and listed them explicitly, along with some HTML problems and duplicate articles. That time, Bill thanked me and said he would take care of it. Guess what? No corrections have been made (as of today, 9 Sep 2000). All he did was label an existing article as new (or else he loaded in another duplicate). >>My succint reply is I would gladly meet these men in person<< That is a grand and totally empty gesture that. It means nothing. I want to see you offer to fly William Hyde [hyde@rossby.tamu.edu] and Wesley R. Elsberry [welsberr@inia.tamug.tamu.edu] from Texas, Matt Singerman [messt66+@pitt.edu] from Pennsylvania, and David Byrden [Goyra@iol.ie] from Ireland just so they can meet you in person. I definitely want to be CC:'d in those emails. One question I have there is why would they want to meet with you? They have already seen that you act like an idiot. Why would they want to go that far just to talk with an idiot? Well, David Byrden might want to use it as an excuse for visiting sunny Southern California. Please tell us, Bill. How many SKEPTICS (as you refer to us in polite society) have actually taken you up on your offer? How did the meetings go? AND, please put us in touch with those other skeptics so that we can check your story against theirs. Sorry that that is necessary, but you have demonstrated a penchant for having your imagination completely rewrite history. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 09-Sep-00 15:43:15 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net Correct answers. The airfields were on Tinian, which was a few miles southwest of Saipan. My father's cousin's husband was on a bomber crew, but that is another story. One of the major reasons I have for taking Iwo Jima was that too many of the damaged bombers couldn't make it back to Tinian, so we needed a base at least half-way to rescue the downed crews. That base was Iwo Jima. Yes, those laws did not come into existence until the mid-50's. Something I read recently linked them to the aftermath of the McCarthy era. Sadly, too much Christian Right rhetorics try to tell the public that those things go all the way back to 1776. Rather, I had always found the Founding Principles to be rather humanistic. ########################################### Subj: Re: Fwd: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 09-Sep-00 15:45:24 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net You object to WHAT? You are starting to revert to your old unintelligible monosyllabic grunts. Please stop acting like an idiot, Bill. Until you demonstrate consistently that you can behave maturely and honestly, stay on-topic, respond intelligibly, remain aware of what is happening around you, stick to the facts, and stop hallucinating, a personal meeting is simply and completely out of the question. Until you can demonstrate those qualities, do not ever issue that invitation again. Doing so would constitute acting like an idiot and so would immediately disqualify your offer from consideration. Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 09-Sep-00 15:46:02 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net >>Meeting at Dennys would have resolved it.<< How could it have? From what I can see, it would have only made matters far worse. I shudder to think of what hallucinations you would have concocted out of it. And how even more outrageous your false accusations against me would have been. What reason could I possibly have for wanting to have a personal meeting with you? Why are you so maniacally fixated on it? What PRECISELY is it that you want to accomplish by it? I want references. I want to hear the testimonies of other "skeptics" who have accepted your invitations. No "choir members", but rather those you call "skeptics", "atheists", and "evolutionists". And I want to hear FROM THEM, not from your own "memory" (or hallucinations based loosely thereupon). AND, I want your sincerest apology to me, Mark, and Mr. Purcell for your false accusations against me, for your obstinant obstructive behavior during my attempts to resolve the matter, and for the acrimony that you caused. ########################################### Subj: Re: Sizzler Date: 09-Sep-00 15:46:39 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net >>Name calling!<< WHAT NAME DID I CALL YOU?? SHOW ME! SHOW ME EXACTLY WHAT THE NAME WAS! I believe that you are falsely accusing me yet again and I WILL NOT STAND FOR IT! SHOW ME! >>I object!<< Bill, I OBJECT! I object to your false accusations. I object to your refusal to support in any manner whatsoever any of your claims, including your false accusations against me. I object to your constantly acting like an idiot. I object to your stupid, childish games. I object to your constant attempts at generating even more of your "rabbit trails". I object to your imagining things that never happened. I object to your persistent refusal to deal with things that actually did happen. I object to the dishonesty displayed by your behavior. I object to your completely ignoring my simple and very reasonable question about your false accusations against me (ie,"what do you think I had said?"), even though I have had to ask it about TWENTY TIMES. And I object most strongly that your response was to spawn yet another "rabbit trail." Namely: >>How did life originate<< By the book: I will answer that question later, but first I want an answer to my questions which I have already asked you and which you have not answered. ALL EIGHTY-FIVE OF THEM. Of course, I will give you a list of the questions and even the context for each one as you prepare to answer them. And do keep in mind that each answer must be an honest attempt at answering that particular question AND it must be intelligible; I will be the judge of whether you have answered a question. You will find me quite reasonable, but I will not tolerate any of your games. But once you have answered my questions so that I can answer yours, what then? I have answered every single one of that class of question, that you have asked me (ie, the ones that I have actually received, not the ones that you imagine to have asked me). Every single time, your response has been to either drop the subject altogether or else try to change the subject with yet another "rabbit trail". Like when I recently answered your question about hominid fossils. What did you do with that answer? Did it help your research any? Or did you just ignore it? Obviously you are not interested in getting any answer to your questions, so why do you keep asking them? Just what is it that you are trying to accomplish with those questions? What are you up to, Bill? Gaining knowledge obviously has nothing to do with it. Yet you have demonstrated an extreme eagerness to ask those questions. Why, Bill? Why? ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 09-Sep-00 15:48:53 Pacific Daylight Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net, ealpurcell@juno.com I have included Mr. Purcell here because Bill had included him in his message to which I am responding. >>I am not, I have never have any gay inclinations.<< Bill, it is the way you act. You are acting like a pervert. Mark's other assumption is quite understandable. He's a male, as are you, so your perversion must be homosexual. Though there are lots of darker ones it could be, but we normal people don't even want to think about those things. Many sexual predators, perverts, and molesters make use of the Internet to find and meet with new victims. Yes, lonely hearts also use the Internet to find and meet with potential lovers, but there is a big difference in how they behave. When the potential lover says "no" firmly enough, the lonely heart usually gets the message and has the good manners to back off from asking for a personal meeting and keep the relationship on-line. The pervert will do what you are doing. He will not take "no" for an answer. He will continue to insist on a personal meeting until he has worn his victim's resistence down enough that he/she finally agrees to the personal meeting and so seals his/her fate. Being a teacher, your wife should have been taught about how these perverts are using the Internet to victimize children and what to watch for. I believe that you will find that you fit the profile. If you don't believe it, then ask her what she would think if, about 14 years from now, a stranger was corresponding on-line with your child and insisting without let-up on a personal meeting with him/her. I think that a mother's response might tell you how you appear to the world out here. If you keep acting like a pervert, please don't act surprised when somebody takes you for one. >> It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a Christian who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is typical.<< Oh really? Please tell us more. >>So when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share your fears.<< Bill, are you trying to use the Christian Death Threat on us again? Let me tell you a little story from Nam. When the morter attack began, there were some born-again Christians and an atheist in the base's rec center. As trained, they all ducked for cover under the tables. The atheist sat there with his drink calmly waiting out the attack; if a shell was going to hit the rec center, then he may as well make himself comfortable waiting for it. OTOH, the born-again Christians were all terrified at the thought of dying and even more so at the thought of God's Judgement and that they might not measure up. In another story that our minister told of his act of healing, the subject was a terminally ill patient in the hospital. He was a believing Christian (whether born-again, I do not know) who was terrified at the prospect of not measuring up to God's Judgement. We understand, Bill. Millions of Christians share your fears. ########################################### Subj: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: 09-Sep-00 15:51:54 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: dwise1@aol.com wrote: "...I want your sincerest apology to me, Mark, and Mr. Purcell for your false accusations against me, for your obstinant obstructive behavior during my attempts to resolve the matter, and for the acrimony that you caused." Bill will ignore this like he ignores everything else and ask the same question: 'how did life originate?' I'm waiting for him to answer, 'where/how/when did God originate?' = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (rly-yc02.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.34]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:51:54 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:51:43 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA38590; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:51:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <004801c01ab0$b834acc0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now offer to you Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:53:05 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: Blocked Field Goal Date: 09-Sep-00 15:57:51 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Bill Morgan wrote: "Don't beg the question. Answer mine, then I anser yours. I answered yours today twice at CS Fullerton as I taught the students everything does not come from nothing, order does not come from disorder and life does not come from non life." Bill, you can't answer my question, that's why you continually dodge it. Where/when/how did God originate? If you claim that God always existed, couldn't a scientist also speculate that the Universe always existed? Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Morgan" >Subject: Re: Blocked Field Goal >Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:33:42 -0500 > >Where/when/how did God originate? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Morgan >To: >Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 12:12 AM >Subject: Re: Blocked Field Goal > > >Life is a cellular organism with the ability to metabolize. > >How did it originate? > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Morgan" > >CC: , > >Subject: Re: Blocked Field Goal > >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:18:22 -0500 > > > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > > > >"Don't blame me for Madeline Murray O'hare." > > > >I blame your mother for conceiving you, as does your father. > > > >"She's your role model." > > > >I enjoy Carl Sagan's lifework much, much more! > > > >"How did life originate?" > > > >What's your definition of life? Please do not point to your own pathetic > >existence as an example. > > > >Where/when/how did God originate? > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Re: Citizen Kane > > >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:25:24 -0500 > > > > > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > > > > > >"I think pimples are important and I am important to you." > > > > > >You are about as important as a bucket of feces. Both you and the >bucket > > >of > > >feces drum up the same amount of chuckles. > > > > > >"A pimple is an indication you have a problem; an in grown hair, too >much > > >greasy food, not enough washing. A pimple tells you to take better >care > >of > > >yourself." > > > > > >You tell me that religious idiots are great at being the brunt of >jokes. > > > > > >"You can pop the pimple, but that does not alleviate your problem. You > > >sould either wash better, pluck out the in grown hair or stop eating > >those > > >McDonald fries in the extra large size." > > > > > >Only a religious idiot could ramble on about pimples. It's as >facinating > > >as > > >the fictitious character named Jesus. > > > > > >"I am honored to be your pimple." > > > > > >Someone like you would be honored to be a zit. I'm not surprised. > > > > > >"I indicate to you you are lying to yourself and fighting a losing >battle > > >against God." > > > > > >How can I fight fiction? > > > > > >"You have richly demonstrated your fight is emotion driven and > > >intellectually driven and I really hope you come > > >to terms that cause you emotionally to deny truth and harvest fruits >that > > >are bitter." > > > > > >You couldn't receive a valid view if your life depended on it. You are >a > > >source of humor. Nothing more... > > > > > >"God is truth, truth leads to peace of mind. Don't pop pimples, be > > >thankful > > >for them and cure the root problem." > > > > > >I'm thankful for nuts like you who like to be called 'zits'. It's a >real > > >side-splitter. > > > > > >"Jesus loves you." > > > > > >I'm sure Juan, Jose and Alfredo like me too. Thanks for the laughs. > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > > >CC: , > > > >Subject: Re: JFK <<---- huh? > > > >Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:55:23 -0500 > > > > > > > >Billy wrote: > > > > > > > >< > >knows > > > >I > > > >wanted and offered to discuss science with him and he keeps talking > >about > > > >"religion." Since he is not stupid, he must be afraid to discuss > >science > > > >because he obviously can read and see where I offered to discuss > >science. > > > >Since he is not stupid, he deflects the science discussion to >religion. > > > >Don't be closed minded Mark. If your atheist faith is defendable > > > >scientifically you would not be so scared. Analyze your fears and >deal > > > >with > > > >them.>> > > > > > > > >You play the role of the typical religious zealot (alias clown) quite > > >well. > > > >Your vocabulary is centered upon the following terms: 'afraid', > > > >'closed-minded', 'scared' and 'fears'. The next thing you know >you'll > >be > > > >offering me punch at a gathering after you change your name to 'Jim > > >Jones'. > > > > > > > >Bill, you're an idiot. It's that simple. If you were a pimple on my > > >body, > > > >you would have been popped and cleansed long ago. > > > > > > > >= ) > > > > > > > >Mark > > > >The Liberator > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > > > >CC: , > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now >offer > > >to > > > > >you > > > > >Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:21:24 -0500 > > > > > > > > > >Bill Morgan , you wrote: > > > > > > > > > >"You seem to complain that I am not listening and that I do not >care, > > >yet > > > > >when I offer to meet and eat and chat you trivialize the attempts >as > >a > > > > >homosexual offer. I am not, I have never have any gay >inclinations." > > > > > > > > > >There are a number of religious people -- or at least people whom > >claim > > > >to > > > > >be religious -- who are gay. It's easy to lump you in with that > >bunch. > > > > > > > > > >"The trajedty here is your fear of seriously listening to a > >Creationist > > > >who > > > > >knows science very well. It is delightful perhaps to humiliate a > > > >Christian > > > > >who is ignorant of science, but the fear of meeting with me is > >typical. > > > >So > > > > >when you log off, and in your hearts know you fear creation and its > > > > >ramifications, you are not alone. Thousands of evolutionists share > > >your > > > > >fears." > > > > > > > > > >Bill, I dread being bored to tears by yet another religious zealot. > > >It's > > > > >nothing more than that. > > > > > > > > > >Have a good life. Be warned, if you continue to pursue religious > > > > >discussion > > > > >with me, I plan on going into insult mode. It's clear that you >have > > > > >absolutely nothing to offer except a few chuckles. > > > > > > > > > >= ) > > > > > > > > > >The people who cling to religion are the people who need it most. > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > >The Liberator > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" > > > > > >CC: , > > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now > >offer > > > >to > > > > > >you > > > > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:03:00 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >This guy keeps asking to meet me at Denny's, Sizzler and a number > >of > > > > >other > > > > > >places. Does he know that I'm not gay? > > > > > > > > > > > >If this keeps up, I'm going to need a restraining order. > > > > > > > > > > > >= ) > > > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > > >The Liberator > > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > >From: Bill Morgan > > > > > >To: > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 10:53 AM > > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now > >offer > > > >to > > > > > >you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >A religious leader? I never claimed such. > > > > > > > > > > > >You asked for everett to judge, he did, and you disagree. Do not > > > > > >personally > > > > > >attack me. Lets meet at Sizzler and chat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > > > >To: > > > > > > >CC: , > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now > > >offer > > > > >to > > > > > > >you > > > > > > >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 10:12:29 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It's comments like the one below that convince me of Bill > >Morgan's > > > >poor > > > > > > >character. Knowing that this man claims to be a religious >leader > > >is > > > > >not > > > > > > >the > > > > > > >least of all surprising. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > > > >The Liberator > > > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > >From: Bill Morgan > > > > > > >To: > > > > > > >Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 12:01 AM > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I now > > >offer > > > > >to > > > > > > >you > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >But everett ruled in my favor. Case closed. Please be a > >gracious > > > > >loser. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > > > > > > >To: , > > > > > > > >CC: , > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Bretheren and Fathers, hear my defense which I >now > > > >offer > > > > > >to > > > > > > > >you > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:09:41 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><with > > > >Bill, > > > > > > >with > > > > > > > >no success. Mark has primarily been a witness to the > >three-year > > > > > > > >correspondence between Bill Morgan and myself and has only > > > > >contributed > > > > > > >his > > > > > > > >own messages a few times, mainly to express his disgust at > >Bill's > > > > > > >conduct. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><has > > >not > > > > >been > > > > > > > >professional. You believe that he is a man of integrity, but > >his > > > > > >conduct > > > > > > > >on-line almost totally lacks integrity. His standard >response > >to > > > > > > > >legitimate > > > > > > > >questions would be the "rabbit trail" trick, which he >explicit > > > > >teaches > > > > > > >his > > > > > > > >recruits to be unacceptable (see his "Witnessing Techniques >#3" > > > > > >article) > > > > > > >or > > > > > > > >to just plain ignore the questions altogether. Now his >"rabbit > > > > >trail" > > > > > >is > > > > > > >a > > > > > > > >set of false accusations against me and my character which he > >has > > > > > > > >steadfastly refused to substantiate in any way. Obviously, > >Bill > > >is > > > > >not > > > > > > > >acting in a professional manner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >< >has > > > > > >observed > > > > > > > >how Bill conducts himself. During that time, he has seen >Bill > > >duck > > > > >one > > > > > > > >question after another. He has seen Bill avoid one question > > >after > > > > > > >another > > > > > > > >by either ignoring it or by asking another, totally unrelated > > > > >question > > > > > > > >which > > > > > > > >is intended to be unanswerable by me; you should immediately > > > > >recognize > > > > > > >that > > > > > > > >tactic as what Bill calls "rabbit trails". Mark has seen >Bill > > >make > > > > > > > >blatantly false statements. Mark has seen Bill play childish > > > >games, > > > > > >such > > > > > > > >as > > > > > > > >repeatedly demanding an answer to a question all the time > > >ignoring > > > > >the > > > > > > > >answer that had already been given the first time -- like the > > > > >childish > > > > > > >game > > > > > > > >he's playing now demanding information that I have already > >given > > > >him, > > > > > > > >twice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><Bill, > > >to > > > > > >which > > > > > > > >you > > > > > > > >responded, is essentially correct. Bill has been playing >games > > >all > > > > > > >along. > > > > > > > >Bill wants to avoid any actual discussion of his claims or of > >the > > > > > >actual > > > > > > > >facts, so he cannot be motivated by truth. In order to avoid > >the > > > > > >facts, > > > > > > >he > > > > > > > >has a vested interest in creating chaos and in preventing the > > > > > >restoration > > > > > > > >of > > > > > > > >order, hence he would have no intention of clearing up >matters. > > > >And > > > > > >Bill > > > > > > > >has made a number of promises which he has not kept, >including > > >his > > > > > > > >agreement > > > > > > > >to an on-line debate, which casts doubt on his integrity as > >well. > > > > >His > > > > > > > >posting on his web site of misinformation that he knew to be > > >false > > > >at > > > > > >the > > > > > > > >time that he posted it, such as the "Ozone Layer" article, > >casts > > > > > >further > > > > > > > >doubt on his integrity and on the role that truth plays in >his > > > > > >actions.>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I agree entirely with this view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Mark > > > > > > > >The Liberator > > > > > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > > > > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > > > > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public >profile > >at > > > > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > > > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile >at > > > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by air-yd03.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:57:51 2000 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:57:22 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA39004; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:57:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <005501c01ab1$806dffc0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Morgan" Cc: , References: Subject: Re: Blocked Field Goal Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 17:58:41 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Does this apply to the Christian Myth? Date: 09-Sep-00 16:03:55 Pacific Daylight Time From: editor@liberator.net (Mark) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, ealpurcell@juno.com Joseph Campbell's Ten Commandments for Reading Myth I Read myths with the eyes of wonder: the myths transparent to their universal meaning, their meaning transparent to its mysterious source. II Read myths in the present tense: Eternity is now. III Read myths in the first person plural: the Gods and Goddesses of ancient mythology still live within you. IV Any myth worth its salt exerts a powerful magnetism. Notice the images and stories that you are drawn to and repelled by. Investigate the field of associated images and stories V Look for patterns; don't get lost in the details. What is needed is not more specialized scholarship, but more interdisciplinary vision. Make connections; break old patterns of parochial thought. VI Resacralize the secular: even a dollar bill reveals the imprint of Eternity. VII If God is everywhere, then myths can be generated anywhere, anytime, by anything. Don't let your Romantic aversion to science blind you to the Buddha in the computer chip. VIII Know your tribe! Myths never arise in a vacuum; they are the connective tissue of the social body which enjoys synergistic relations with dreams (private myths) and rituals (the enactment of myth). IX Expand your horizons! Any mythology worth remembering will be global in scope. The earth is our home and humankind is our family. X Read between the lines! Literalism kills; Imagination quickens. ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za01.mx.aol.com (rly-za01.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.97]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v75_b3.11) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:03:55 -0400 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-za01.mx.aol.com (v75_b3.9) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:03:33 -0400 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA39612; Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:03:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from editor@liberator.net) Message-ID: <006401c01ab2$5efccaa0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: Cc: , Subject: Does this apply to the Christian Myth? Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 18:04:54 -0500 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ########################################### ########################################### ########################################### ###########################################