################################################ Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: 05-Dec-00 06:42:01 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack321@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com Thank you very much for the e amil and I agree the burden of proof is on me to find a specific example of a polystrate fossil if I am making the claim they exist! If it is a phoney claim, not only won't I state they exist, I will correct other Creation people not to claim they exist. If you would meet me face to face, you could hear of the numerous times I correct creation people on false claims (Darwin converting on his death bed...not true, the dust on the moon something I do not use). Regarding our meeting, I do not understand why you say I have never responded to "being insulted." I think you are smart enough to remember how I responded. I feel insulted that you keep bringing it up. For the last time, when I invited you and your wife to dinner with my wife and I, I remember your response as equivalent to your wife would rather do just about anything else than eat with people who love Jesus. Can I paste teh e mail? No. Am I 100% over the insult? Yes. Do I hold anything against you? No. Do I think you will bring this up when you give my eulogy at my funeral 50 years from now? Yes. Let it rest Dave, freinds like us have got to get on with life. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:41:58 EST > >Bill M, sorry I haven't gotten back with you sooner, but I really have been >extremely busy. I wouldn't want you go jumping to conclusions again and >start accusing me (again falsely) of being afraid of answering your >questions. From personal experience you should better than that. > >Since time is tight, I will address your direct question first and respond >to >the rest later. > >But the very first thing we need to do is to bring everybody into the loop: >----Original Message---- >Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 5:29:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: DWise1@aol.com > >Excellent E mail! I do like Kent Hovind, but some of his claims make my >eye >balls roll. But I don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Anyone >who >writes a glot or speaks a lot has made mistakes. They should belly up tot >he bar and confess these mistakes. > > >But here is an encouraging letter I got regarding Kent Hovind: > > >"thank you so much for letting us know about Ken Hovind! We bought his tape >series. We can't thank you enough. WE appreciate all your emails and >newsletter. We live in Corona and find it hard to make the meetings...but >will sure try!!Lynn And Rick" > >Dave, what is an explanation for polystrate fossils? > >------------------------ > > > >>Dave, what is an explanation for polystrate fossils?<< > >I'll place my question right up front so that you won't miss it as you >don't >bother to read my reply. > >It would help me greatly in answering your question if you were to tell me >what particular polystrate fossil you have in mind and why what kind of a >problem you think that it presents to science. Of course, I will also need >a >reference to the science journal that describes that fossil. I simply do >not >have the time to waste chasing a phantom wild goose. > >Now for my reply: > >Polystrate fossils had always given me a lot of trouble. Not with >explaining >them, but just in finding references on them. That is one of the worst >documented classes of creationist claims that I have encountered. For a >long >time I could not find a single scientific reference anywhere -- lots of >claims of polystrate fossils, but no references. > >Then finally Paul Ekdahl on CompuServe quoted from a creationist book about >fossil trees found fully intact with roots and branches and extending >through >coal seams. The really great thing about Paul was that he would slavishly >copy creationist passages verbatim, including even footnote numbers! This >time he had included a reference. I finally had a reference to a >scientific >journal! When I looked it up, I found that Paul's creationist source had >misrepresented his scientific source. The article clearly stated that NONE >of the trees extended into the coal seams, not even their roots, and that >most of them were missing their branches. > >Now, the creationist and Paul were both proceeding from the false premise >that modern geology requires slow, strictly gradualistic accumulation of >sediment at a uniform rate and that modern geology cannot account for rapid >depositation. Therefore, they conclude, any signs of rapid burial >disproves >uniformitarianism and is direct evidence of Noah's Flood. > >Bullfrog! Modern geologists know full well that flooding and landslides >occur and that they had occured in the past. Even 19th century geologists >knew that! Geologists also know what to look for to indicate whether a >deposit had been deposited rapidly or gradually. The referenced article >even >described some of the characteristics of rapid vs gradual burial. If the >creationist had only bothered to read his source, ... . > >I have been trying to find my response to Paul Ekdahl, but with no success. >That was back in 1990. I had uploaded it into the forum's library, but >those >files have been moved around since then and I cannot find out where. I >also >have been unable to find the file at home. When I do find it, I will share >it with you. > >In the meantime, it would help me greatly in answering your question if you >were to tell me what particular polystrate fossil you have in mind and what >kind of a problem you think that it presents to science. > >Of course, I will also need a reference to the science journal that >describes >that fossil. I simply do not have the time to waste chasing a phantom wild >goose. Besides which, your response to my having answered your question >would undoubtedly be your standard immediate dropping of the subject and >ignoring all follow-up questions from me. > >If I may share a little something from a fundamentalist Christian who has >contacted me for help. He is very concerned about the total lack of >concern >for truth among his fellow Christians when it comes to creation science; he >has just informed me that after a serious talk with his pastor about the >matter, he has decided to leave his church (his wife is appalled at their >now-former pastor having expressed a total lack of concern for scientific >or >scholarly truth). He counselled me earlier, though I knew it already: > >"Two lessons came out of this: >1. Creationist citations of mainstream or evolutionist sources are almost >always wrong. You _must_ check them out! If you can't find the original >source, the citation is worthless. >2. Creationists have a strong tendency to misunderstand what you say. >State >your case clearly. Always keep copies of your own correspondence and refer >to them later." > >You should take note of both of his lessons, because they apply directly to >you. > >For the first lesson, consider your quotes from "Weird Science" which you >have also posted on your web site. You've attached names to them, for the >most part, but there is no reference to the original source! Nor is there >any date attached to them. The reader cannot tell whether the information >is >current or grossly out-of-date. You really do need to correct that, Bill >M. > >And the second one is you! Look at all the times that you have >misunderstood >and twisted around what I have written. And what have I had to do? I have >had to show you a copy of what I had actually written so that I could >correct >your misunderstanding. > >Only you would not allow that to happen to your false and slanderous >accusations against me. Would you, Bill M? Oh, why not? Bill Morgan, for >the FORTIETH TIME, provide the information that we need to resolve the >matter >of your slanderous personal attack against me. > > >Gee, Bill M, wouldn't you think that FORTY TIMES is way too many times for >somebody to have to make a simple request of a CHRISTIAN? I mean, if a >person were dishonest and a liar, then we could understand that he would >want >to do everything he possibly could to avoid having to respond to a simple >request for information that would expose his lies. We could understand >why >he would fear and hate the truth. > >But a CHRISTIAN is supposed to be above that. A CHRISTIAN is supposed to >be >in the service of truth. A CHRISTIAN is supposed to be honest. It seems >to >have something to do with some high moral standards that they keep boasting >about. And direct responsibility to an Extremely High-Placed Entity that >they keep talking about. You might have heard something about that at some >time or other, Bill M. > >So when we observe a CHRISTIAN behaving in a dishonest manner and >exhibiting >fear and hatred for the truth, then that forms a very powerful witness to >us. > It witnesses that CHRISTIANS are dishonest and that they do not really >serve >truth, but rather they hate and fear it. It also witnesses to us that >CHRISTIANS' behavior is diametrically opposed to what they claim, which >means >that they are hypocritical. That is what your witness tells us, Bill M. > >Are we to assume that that is your intended witness, Bill Morgan? > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:42:01 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f162.law6.hotmail.com [216.32.241.162]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (v76_r1.19) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:40:48 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:40:44 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw6fd.law6.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:40:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 06:40:44 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2000 14:40:44.0828 (UTC) FILETIME=[596F55C0:01C05EC9] ################################################ Subj: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 05-Dec-00 06:45:11 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack321@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com May I see the corrections of the alleged falsehoods taught by Ken Ham and Kent Hovind?? >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:42:52 EST > > >>But here is an encouraging letter I got regarding Kent Hovind: > >"thank you so much for letting us know about Ken Hovind! We bought his tape >series. We can't thank you enough. WE appreciate all your emails and >newsletter. We live in Corona and find it hard to make the meetings...but >will sure try!!Lynn And Rick" ><< > >Uh, Bill M. You know, that letter was not regarding Kent Hovind. They >only >mention him in passing and don't really say anything about him. Rather, >most >of the letter was in praise you. I think your ego is showing again. > > >Now, here is an encouraging letter I got regarding my web site: > >"Thank you for your web site. I am a Christian at a fundamentalist church >who has been encouraged to watch the Answers in Genesis series of >videotapes >featuring Ken Ham and Gary Parker. I want to clear out false teaching in >the >Christian church, and there is a lot of it regarding evolution and creation >science. I make available a sheet of corrections to the last week's class >at >the beginning of the next class, but nobody seems much interested in what I >have found. I would be quite happy for them just to repudiate obviously >false statements and misquotations - perhaps we can deal with bad science >another day. > >"I finally got some movement last week when I asked the associate pastor >directly, "Are you saying that it is okay to teach falsehoods and >distortions >in the cause of Jesus Christ?" He was shocked at that notion and said No. >It remains to be seen what action will be taken, whether the repentance >will >be more like Zaccheus or merely a minor recommendation for the rest of the >students to check these things out. > >"I am glad to come across your web site. For a while there I thought it >was >just me, Hugh Ross, and the Pope against a whole crowd of young-earth >creationists, while the atheists stood across the room and laughed at us. >It's nice to know that I'm not alone." > >Well, Bill M, it turns out that his pastor's answer to that question is >actually "yes". Last week he wrote me: > >"I had a talk with the pastor yesterday afternoon about the >evolution/creation class and the 3 letters I had written. He and I have a >fundamental difference with regard to non-Biblical truth. He thought the >errors I had pointed out were subjective, but it still didn't matter much >to >him. Scientific and scholarly truth are low priorities. So if a guy >distorts the truth about some scientific study or discovery, it doesn't >matter as long as he is a strong voice preaching against evolution. Truth >about the Bible and truth about non-Biblical sources are on two different >tiers of acceptability. > >"He thought it might be nice to review the videotape series thoroughly if >the >church ever shows them again, but it's definitely a low priority. "Maybe >we >could tighten it up a bit." He refused to make any post-class announcement >that there were some flaws in the teaching. If evolution is being >attacked, >scholarship and accuracy and non-Biblical truth don't matter a whole lot. >I >kid you not about this. > >"It's not quite true that you can lie your ass off about anything that's >not >in the Bible, but it's close to that. It seems that the main problem with >lying about non-Biblical sources is that some knowledgeable person might >catch you at it. > >"I asked about the great lack of people checking up on things, like the >Bible >commands us to do and (respected guest preacher) Arthur Burt told us to do. >He thought that was a pretty minor problem. He said that the prevailing >attitude is that nobody else is checking up on things because nobody is >interested in disproving creationism. What's the point of checking up on >assertions that are in our favor? We only check things that are against >us. > >"Obviously that's not what the Bible and Arthur Burt said. Arthur >challenged >us to test everything he says. > >"All this confirms what you said about convincing polemic arguments and the >truth. > >"I don't think the pastor will ever understand the concept of theistic >evolution. To him, evolution and atheism are two different spellings for >the >same concept. > >"It was a cordial conversation, but strange. I'm glad I heard it from his >mouth. The practice of the church matches what he said, too. My wife was >appalled. We will be terminating our membership there this week. I have >exhausted all the reasonable avenues for affecting change." > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (rly-yd01.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.1]) by air-yd01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:45:11 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f79.law6.hotmail.com [216.32.241.79]) by rly-yd01.mx.aol.com (v76_r1.19) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:44:43 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:44:43 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw6fd.law6.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:44:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Subject: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 06:44:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2000 14:44:43.0129 (UTC) FILETIME=[E7792E90:01C05EC9] ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 06-Dec-00 18:40:46 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net In response to my email (header follows): >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:42:52 EST Bill Morgan wrote (complete email with header follows): >Subj: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 9:45:11 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: DWise1@aol.com >May I see the corrections of the alleged falsehoods taught by Ken Ham and >Kent Hovind?? [Note to Bill Morgan: it really makes it a lot simpler if you just CC: to our witnesses.] Bill M, why don't you ever listen? Why are you incapable of reading what is written? Why do you have to constantly twist and distort what others say? Has your devotion to creation science made you incapable of dealing with the facts as they are presented? Reread my email. If you have lost your copy of it, then just ask and I will gladly send you another copy, just as I will gladly send you a copy of any correspondence between us (you just need to identify it sufficiently for me to find it). When you have reread my email, you will find that the only reference to Kent Hovind was: >>But here is an encouraging letter I got regarding Kent Hovind: > >"thank you so much for letting us know about Ken Hovind! We bought his tape >series. We can't thank you enough. WE appreciate all your emails and >newsletter. We live in Corona and find it hard to make the meetings...but >will sure try!!Lynn And Rick" ><< >Uh, Bill M. You know, that letter was not regarding Kent Hovind. They >only >mention him in passing and don't really say anything about him. Rather, >most >of the letter was in praise you. I think your ego is showing again. Tell us, Bill M. Where in that text is any mention made of any "alleged falsehoods taught by ... Kent Hovind"? Where? Show us! I certainly cannot see it. I'm sure that Mark won't be able to see it either. Since Bill B is running in "jerk" mode at present, I have no idea what he'd see or whether he'd even try to look -- I would assume that without looking he would immediately share in your hallucination. Now, if you would bother to read what I had written, you would see that I was quoting to you parts of emails I have recently received from a FUNDAMENTALIST Christian, Carl Drews (I can give you his name now because he gives it himself on his web site at http://www.dimensional.com/~jambo/evolution/). In the quoted text, Carl does mention being in a creation/evolution class at church based on "watch[ing] the Answers in Genesis series of videotapes featuring Ken Ham and Gary Parker" and having "[made] available a sheet of corrections to the last week's class at the beginning of the next class". He says that he "would be quite happy for [his classmates] just to repudiate obviously false statements and misquotations - perhaps we can deal with bad science another day." Please note carefully that Carl was talking about Ken Ham and GARY PARKER, NOT about Kent Hovind. Go back and read it again. I want you to understand that point very clearly. Carl Drews was NOT talking about Kent Hovind. Do you understand, Bill M? Please answer "yes" or "no", so that I can know whether you do now understand what had been clearly written in the first place. It is important that you do listen and that you do understand what had been written so that you don't end up yet again acting like an idiot. Now then, Bill Morgan, regarding the question of your getting to "see the corrections of the alleged falsehoods taught by Ken Ham and [Gary Parker]", I do not have a copy. I will ask Carl for a copy and will pass that copy on to you and to our witnesses. Since Carl is a fellow programmer, I would assume that he had typed them up on his computer and so would already have an electronic copy. In the meantime, I will give you an example of a Gary Parker misquotation that Carl presents. As for Kent Hovind, I have already given you a list of sources for critiques of his claims. Since I am sure that you were not listening then, I will give them to you yet again. Both presentations will be in separate emails. ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 06-Dec-00 18:41:26 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net As promised, here is one of the misquotations by Gary Parker that Carl has written about in the references section of his web page, http://www.dimensional.com/~jambo/evolution/references.html. Starting with Carl's mention of it to me: >It's not quite true that you can lie your ass off about anything that's not in the Bible, but it's close to that. It seems that the main problem with lying about non-Biblical sources is that some knowledgeable person might catch you at it.< >Furthermore, after the claim has been exposed [by a person knowledgeable in that field], the higher-echelon creationist may acknowledge the fact to the knowledgeable person (though only if he has to) and then will continue to use it on others as if nothing had happened.< This explains why Gary Parker continues to use a misquote by Richard Lewontin 17 years after Lewontin himself wrote to Impact to complain about it. Bill M, the misquotation occured in Impact No. 88, "Creation, Selection, And Variation", by Gary Parker (text at http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-088.htm). Parker writes: "Living things also have properties of organization that clearly transcend the potential of their parts. As Harvard's Richard Lewontin recently summarized it, organisms ' … appear to have been carefully and artfully designed.' 4 He calls the 'perfection of organisms' both a challenge to Darwinism and, on a more positive note, 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.'" 4. Lewontin, Richard, "Adaptation," Scientific American. V. 239. No. 3, 1978, pp. 212-230. Bill M, here is what Lewontin actually wrote: Richard C. Lewontin, "Adaptation", Scientific American, vol. 239, September 1978, p. 213 "The manifest fit between organisms and their environment is a major outcome of evolution.... Life forms are more than simply multiple and diverse, however. Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each organism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer. Darwin realized that if a naturalistic theory of evolution was to be successful, it would have to explain the apparent perfection of organisms and not simply their variation." Carl's source was Jan Haugland's "Creationist Misquotes" pages [http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/misquote.htm], from which he reproduced the following commentary (NOTE: Haugland's source for the misquote was the JW tract, "The Amazing Design of Living Things", which used Parker's Impact article as a source): "(In my [Jan Haugland's] opinion, this is one of the worst misquotes ever, and one who has given JWs much bad publicity on Usenet. Lewontin himself wasn't very happy about it.)" .. "In another page, the Jehovah's Witness Life booklet quotes biologist Richard Lewontin as saying: ""Zoologist Richard Lewontin said that organisms 'appear to have been carefully and artfully designed.' He views them as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' " (WTBS, p. 143). The implication here is that Lewontin himself believes that life was intelligently designed by a "Supreme Designer". In fact, Lewontin believes no such thing. As he explained in a letter to a creationist publication debunking the misquote, "The point of my article, 'Adaptation' in Scientific American, from which these snippets were lifted, was precisely that the 'perfection of organisms' is often illusory and that any attempt to describe organisms as perfectly adapted is destined for serious contradictions. Moreover, the appearance of careful and artful design was taken in the nineteenth century before Darwin as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' The past tense of my article ('It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the en vironment ... that was the chief evidence of Supreme Designer') has been conveniently dropped by creationist Parker in his attempt to pass off this ancient doctrine as modern science." (Lewontin, "Misquoted Scientists Respond," Creation/Evolution VI, Fall 1981, p. 35) Parker's selective editing, repeated later by the Witnesses in their tract, can only be viewed as a deliberate attempt to distort Lewontin's meaning and make him say what creationists would like to hear him say." Bill M, in the same Impact article, I noticed that Gary Parker had included the standard creationist misquotation of Darwin's "Origin of Species" concerning the evolution of the eye. Parker writes: "Consider the eye, for example, 'with all its inimitable contrivances,' as Darwin called them, which can admit different amounts of light, focus at different distances, and correct spherical and chromatic aberration. Consider also the splitting of pigment molecules that must be coupled to nerve impulse initiation, and consider that none of these impulses has any meaning apart from millions of neurons integrated into interpretive centers in the brain. Each of these features of optic structure and function is a complex trait itself, and none of these separate components would have any meaning or 'survival value,' until nearly all were put together in a functioning whole of compounded complexities. No wonder Darwin wrote: 'To suppose that the eye, … could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.'" Here is what Darwin actually wrote in the "Organs of extreme perfection and complication" section of his chapter on Difficulties of the Theory: "To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark t hat several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound." So we see that Darwin was saying something quite different from what Gary Parker misrepresented him as having said. If we don't think about, don't reason the problem through, then the evolution of something like the eye would seem absurd. In another edition, I recall Darwin expanding on the "insuperable by our imagination" phrase by saying that the fault lies with the limitations of our ability to visualize it in our minds (by way of analogy, consider that reason, here AKA mathematics, enables us to work with hundreds of dimensions, even though extremely few of us can visualize more than three dimensions, if even that many). Yet when we do reason the problem through, we find that the difficulties imagined do not really exist. Then Darwin goes on for the next two pages listing and describing several "intermediate" forms of the eye that do indeed benefit their possessors as sight organs, including one which is little more than a nerve ending. Bill M, do you remember Scott Alexander, the proprietor of the "In the Beginning" creationist shop in The City back around 1990? The shop was decorated with posters copied from ICR books, including the Darwin misquotation about the eye. I provided Scott with a copy of what Darwin had actually written. I could tell that he really did not want to see it. He quietly set it on a shelf behind the counter. I was quite certain that he threw it in the trash, unread, after I left. That taught me a very important lesson about creationists. I relate yet another story of Gary Parker misrepresenting his source in my page on Duane Gish's totally bogus bullfrog-protein claim, "The Bullfrog Affair" at http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/bullfrog.html . Here is Gary Parker's claim about alpha-lactalbumin, a protein involved in the production of lactose in mammals which apparently had evolved from lysozyme: "By comparing lysozyme and lactalbumin, Dickerson was hoping to 'pin down with great precision' where human beings branched off the mammal line. The results are surprising. In this test, it turned out that humans are more closely related to the CHICKEN than to any living mammal tested!" (_What is Creation Science?_, Morris & Parker, Revised, 1987, pg 58) Here is what Dickerson had actually written: "A simple-minded application of the 'clocks' ideas of Chapter 3 [i.e. assuming constant rates of change for proteins to estimate when they had diverged] to these lysozymes and alpha-lactalbumin leads to an apparent contradiction. If alpha-lactalbumin evolved from a mammalian lysozyme during the course of the development of mammals, then it and human lysozyme should be more similar than either is to hen lysozyme. Conversely, the assumption that rates of change have been constant in all three proteins since divergence leads to the conclusion that the alpha-lactalbumins separated from the lysozymes long before the first appearance of terrestrial vertebrates. Where is the fallacy? "The fallacy, of course, is in the assumption of unchanging rates of accumulation of tolerable mutations. For one particular protein, performing much the same task in a wide spectrum of species, this may be a valid working hypothesis. But when circumstances arise in the environment such that a duplicated gene is being altered, the better to perform a NEW function, selection pressure is unusually severe and changes in sequence will be unusually rapid." (_The Structure and Action of Proteins_, Richard Dickerson and Irving Geis, 1969, page 78) Dickerson clearly indicates that this was a simple-minded application of an idea that was meant to apply only for a protein whose function remained constant. The assumption that the rates at which all three proteins changed would remain constant is unwarranted and inconsistent with the ideas of evolution. Ironically, "creation scientists" traditionally attack any assumption of a constant rate, except of course for their own assumptions. In the same article, I present yet another set of false claims made by Gary Parker. As we know, the pattern of protein comparisons closely matches what we would expect to result from evolution. "Creation scientists" try to counter this body of biochemical evidence by claiming that certain protein comparisons actually show humans to be more closely related to vastly different organisms (e.g. bullfrogs, chickens, rattlesnakes) than to chimpanzees. A classic example is offered by former biologist Gary Parker, formerly of the ICR, in his book, _Creation: The Facts of Life_, in which he lists several molecules that show humans to be more closely related to quite different organisms than to apes: Molecule Nearest Relative to Humans -------- -------------------------- Fetal Hemoglobin Horse Tear Enzymes Chicken Albumin Bullfrog Blood Antigen A Butterbean Cholesterol Level Gartersnake Milk Chemistry Donkey Drs. Awbrey and Thwaites examined the literature and Parker's references and published their findings ("A Closer Look at Some Biochemical Data that 'Support' Creation" by Frank T. Awbrey and William M. Thwaites, _Creation/Evolution_ Issue VII, 1982, pp 14-17). They found (quoting freely) that for: Fetal Hemoglobin -- Hemoglobin has four globin molecules, each arranged around a central iron atom and a porphyrin ring. Human fetal hemoglobin has two alpha globins and two gamma globins, each with 146 amino acids. Horses don't have gamma globins. Chimpanzees do, and it is identical to that of humans. So creationists conclude that a molecule that doesn't exist is more similar to a human molecule than is an identical chimpanzee molecule. Tear Enzymes -- The enzyme referred to here is lysozyme, which is found in human milk, tears, leukocytes, etc. Variants exist in tissues of other species, for example, in chicken egg whites. Chicken lysozyme differs from human lysozyme by 51 out of 130 amino acids. Chimpanzee lysozyme is identical to human lysozyme. Either creationists have ignored the literature or they apparently believe that 51 is less than zero. Albumin -- Human and chimpanzee albumin differ by six out of 580 amino acids. Human and bullfrog albumins differ so much that they don't cross-react in immunological tests. Blood Antigen A -- This is one of the molecules that determine blood types. They are called glycoproteins because they have sugars attached to a protein. Butterbeans contain a sugar configuration that is similar enough to the glycoprotein sugar that it can react with antibodies directed against the A blood type if the butterbean sugar is at a high concentration. Chimpanzees have blood antigens that are identical or nearly identical to those of humans. Having no blood, butterbeans obviously have no blood antigens. Cholesterol Level -- Cholesterol is a simple lipid (a wax) and its structure doesn't vary among species. Furthermore, its concentration can vary several hundredfold in an individual human depending upon diet and genetic background. Therefore, it is a useless molecule for determining genetic similarity. This datum isn't just wrong, it's nonexistent. Milk Chemistry -- No direct comparison of human and chimpanzee milk chemistry could be found. However, it was found that human milk proteins (whey and casein) are much more like macaque milk than donkey milk. Human and chimpanzee milk lysozymes are identical. Even this limited comparison disproves the creationist claim that the donkey is our nearest relative based on milk chemistry. So, Bill M, is that enough to tide you over until I get a copy of Carl's list? ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 06-Dec-00 18:41:59 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net Bill M, Carl advised me, though I had known it for decades: "Creationist citations of mainstream or evolutionist sources are almost always wrong. You _must_ check them out! If you can't find the original source, the citation is worthless." Your quotations in "Weird Science", which you have also posted on your site, come immediately to mind. From the start, much of Carl's approach has been based on checking creationist sources. His first encounter and epiphany was circa 1985 in a Young Singles Bible Study at his church. Somebody brought in the Chick Pub, "Big Daddy?" (the one you had based your "Weird Science" and "Weird Tour" on) and Carl volunteered to check it out and report back to the group. With the attitude of "I knew that evolution had some holes in it. Let's see what he found.", Carl went to the public library to look up the references that were cited in the pamphlet. What Carl found was that the citations were not what the original source had said and that none of the original authors would have agreed with the conclusions drawn in the pamphlet. He was shocked and upset that this Christian pamphlet contained substantially wrong information! He was able to locate most of the references, and all the ones he found had twisted the meaning of original information. Carl brought his findings back to the Young Singles group and presented them. Although he tried to be gentle, the group was shocked, surprised, and angry at what the pamphlet's author had done. Carl wrote to the publisher and asked them why a Christian would put together such a poor pamphlet. He got a fairly lengthy response that admitted no wrong, misinterpreted several things he had said, defended the pamphlet, and supplied additional examples to replace the ones I had rejected, also wrong. The entire experience was so upsetting to Carl that he refused to discuss creation/evolution for many years after that. Here is how Carl describes "Typical Encounters with Creationists": "A few times I have written to the authors of creationist publications, pointing out some inaccuracy or a faulty analysis. The encounter follows the following pattern: 1. I write to them. 2. They write back to me refusing to admit error; "I make no apologies." They defend their position and manner of expressing it. I notice some misinterpretation of my letter, or ignoring of what I clearly said. 3. If I write back to them a second time, rebutting their response or bringing up another point, 4. They become abusive and insulting. 5. At this point I have nothing further to do with them." Bill M and witnesses, please pay especial attention to the third sentence of point #2. Please note how well Carl describes Bill Morgan's SOP of misinterpreting and distorting what we had said, as well as ignoring the salient points that we are making. Bill M, Carl describes you to a "T". ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 06-Dec-00 18:42:46 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net Now, here is the repeat of the Kent Hovind information that I promised you earlier (unlike Bill Morgan, I deliver on my promises or at least make a determined effort to): Yes, I am familiar with Kent Hovind. Many Christians and creationists consider his scientific competence to be questionable. One creationist associated with a major creationist organization told me off the record that they are very concerned about Hovind's claims and the detrimental effects that they can have on [a Christian's faith. -- accidentally left out in the original] Another Christian friend used to be a certifiable YEC addict until he watched a Kent Hovind video. In his own words: "One day, being psyched-up for a new fix, I popped in a video I had received from a young man at Church. The tape was a series of debates (about eight), between a famous "young earther" and various evolutionists. After viewing them, I found my jaw on the floor. I truly expected these evolutionists to roll over and die after being presented with this battering of "facts" - they didn't! I was truely numbed and frankly, pretty upset with the manners of this "young earther." I had to come to some serious conclusions that day. -- Scientists have answers for each point raised, e.g. shrinking sun, polystrate fossils etc., they were NOT surprised at all! -- Creation Science is not science. I watched as this creationist fellow was repeatedly being cornered, relying on miracle after miracle to answer their questions. Yes, God can and does perform miracles, but these were miracles that were not even in the Bible - that's not science! -- I have been a hypocrite! My favorite reasoning with skeptics is to challenge them to examine both sides of an issue before reaching their conclusions. "How can we dialogue fairly if we only have one point of view?" I would ask. But I have NEVER given an evolutionist nor an old earth creationist the opportunity to present their case! I talked to my pastor (a young-earther), about my new discoveries. He warned me as so many other "creationists" have, that to continue on this path was dangerous and would only lead to me falling away from the faith. ... Since then, I have corresponded with several Christians who have traveled the same path as I have. One thing that is always agreed upon is the damage young-earth creationism can do to souls; how many believers they have seen fall away. We have been taught that the Bible demands a young earth interpretation and when the facts of nature become inescapable - our faith becomes shattered! My pastor was wrong, the opposite was the case. If "R" had been offered the truth from the beginning, he would never have experienced the turmoil he went through. When "R" could no longer deny that the universe was billions of years old, the only option left for him was to deny the Bible. How many others have been disheartened in like manner?" I have also visited Hovind's site, where he claims to have researched his material thoroughly. However, it is obvious that that is not true. In particular in his article that the universe is not billions of years old, I observed that ALL of his cited sources were by other creationists and that he had not tried to verify THEIR sources (we should talk some time about how creationist claims circulate among creationists and are accepted uncritically, judged only by how convincing they sound). I know that, because he uses Ackermann's "It's a Young Earth After All" as a source for his moon dust argument. In turn, Ackermann had relied almost entirely on a reference to a "1976" NASA document "written well into the space age." I've read that "1976" NASA document. It was "Meteor Orbits and Dust", a 1967 printing of papers presented at a 1965 conference. The actual claim that Ackermann uses was written by Harold Slusher, who misrepresented the date of the document and took values out of it to plug into a formula of his own making. That formula inflated its results by a factor of 10,000 by incorporating extra factors that the document and the rules of math clearly say would not apply. You can read about it on my Moon Dust page, http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/moondust.html . If Hovind had actually done his research as he should have, back to the primary source, then he would have known that he was basing his moon dust claim on a hoax. He also fell for the Oņate Man hoax [search engines do not seem to like "ņ", so do your web search on "Onyate Man"]. In Philadelphia on 7 May 1999, he told the packed audience at Calvary Chapel about a recent fossil find that scientists were trying to cover up: the fossilized remains of a human in the jaws of an allosaurus reported at www.darwindisproved.com ! That "find" was a hoax created by members of New Mexicans for Science & Reason (NMSR). You can read all about it at http://www.darwindisproved.com/april_fool.html and the original at http://www.darwindisproved.com/Archive.html . Here is what Hovind has to say about it in a phone conversation with Stephen Meyers, as related by Meyers [see http://hometown.aol.com/ibss3/hovind.html]: "He said that someone told him that morning about www.darwindisproved.com so he put it in his presentation, later that day he discovered it was a hoax and removed it (I would think you would want to check out a web site before recommending it to a large audience)." Of course, his having removed that claim from his presentation does not help most of the Philadelphia audience who still have not heard that it was a hoax, so the damage has been done. But even worse is that he had simply accepted HEARSAY at face value, did not make even the slightest attempt to verify it, and presented it to the public authoritatively as a solid fact As I had discovered on his website, HOVIND DOES NOT DO HIS HOMEWORK. He in fact does NOT research his claims. The subject of Hovind's PhD always comes up. Patriot University is now nothing more than a diploma mill, but Hovind says that it was accredited when he got his degree. However, there are several glaring irregularities about his thesis, not the least of which being that Hovind is constantly rewriting it and a complete copy is nowhere to be found (a doctoral candidate publishes the final form of his thesis, a copy of which is kept by the school). The complete story on this can be found at "The Dissertation Kent Hovind Doesn't Want You to Read: A Review of Kent Hovind's Thesis" by Karen Bartelt, Ph.D., at http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm . Bill M, I think I know why you admire Kent Hovind so much. He also refuses to engage in a written debate! Read about it at http://www.nmsr.org/HOVIND.HTM . Bill M will especially admire how Hovind dances about in all directions to avoid the issues. Dr. Karen E. Bartelt also reports "On the Till-Hovind Debate" at http://www.holysmoke.org/hovind2.htm . This tells you something about Hovind's presentation style -- too rapid-fire for anybody to actually think about what he is saying. That must be why he doesn't want to engage in a written debate; he doesn't want his audience to be able to think about and test his claims. This page also includes Hovind's claim about the 11-foot human skeleton. I forget if he uses it here, but one of Hovind's tactics is the "Christian Death Threat": the last thing he says is that his opponent is going to Hell. Which is a natural lead-in to Ed Babinski's "Cretinism or Evilution? No. 3: Men Over Ten Feel Tall" at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part2.html. Here, Babinski (a former fundamentalist and YEC) tried his best to research Hovind and Baugh's claim of a skeleton found in an Italian mine. What is more disturbing than the absolute lack of any evidence for this claim, is that none of the creationists Babinski was trying to work with had any desire or interest in verifying their claim, even though Babinski was doing all the work for them. Supports my current thesis that creationists only care about how convincing a creationist claim sounds; they really do not care whether it's actually true. Have you heard the Hovind claim about an ancient 90-foot plum tree that had been found in Siberia, frozen in place and bearing fruit? Ed Babinski checked that one out too, as he reports in "A Frozen Ninety Foot Tall Plum Tree with Ripe Fruit and Green Leaves Found North of the Arctic Circle?" at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part3.html . As I read this and saw the German explorer's name, von Toll ("toll" = "crazy"), I thought that was part of the fabrication, but, no, that name was about the only part that was true. Another creationist had gotten the real story from a second- or third-generation source and fabricated the plum-tree story from it. Hovind got the story from that creationist (or from the n-th creationist to have passed it on) and didn't bother to check it out. This is yet another example of Kent Hovind not actually doing the research that he boasts about doing (guess that means he's lying about researching his claims). Here are a few more sites for more information about Hovind and his claims: "How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments? A Close Look at Dr. Hovind's List of Young-Earth Arguments and Other Claims" by Dave Matson, April 21, 1994 http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/matson-vs-hovind.html An excellent review of Hovind's claims and critiques thereof. Contains the best and most thorough coverage of Slusher's moon-dust claim that I have seen anywhere. Hovind "critiques" Matson at his site, but if he had actually read it then he would know that his moon-dust claim is based on a hoax [see above]. The Wild, Wild World of Kent Hovind. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/hovind/wild_hovind.html No Answers in Genesis! http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/ This is the parent site of a number of the pages listed here and contains several links to creationist topics, including others about Hovind. CSE: Specific Responses to Claims Made By Kent Hovind and the Creation Science Evangelism Web Pages http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~hjlecken/hovind.html "Dr." Kent Hovind http://www.geocities.com/odonate/hovind.htm "Kent Hovind is a Kwazy Kweationist" http://www.skepticfriends.org/letter31.html ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/06/2000 19:55:40 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net next ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:40 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > In response to my email (header follows): > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal > >Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:42:52 EST > > Bill Morgan wrote (complete email with header follows): > > >Subj: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 9:45:11 AM Eastern Standard Time > >From: "Bill Morgan" > >To: DWise1@aol.com > >May I see the corrections of the alleged falsehoods taught by Ken Ham and > >Kent Hovind?? > > [Note to Bill Morgan: it really makes it a lot simpler if you just CC: to our witnesses.] > > Bill M, why don't you ever listen? Why are you incapable of reading what is written? Why do you have to constantly twist and distort what others say? Has your devotion to creation science made you incapable of dealing with the facts as they are presented? > > Reread my email. If you have lost your copy of it, then just ask and I will gladly send you another copy, just as I will gladly send you a copy of any correspondence between us (you just need to identify it sufficiently for me to find it). > > When you have reread my email, you will find that the only reference to Kent Hovind was: > > >>But here is an encouraging letter I got regarding Kent Hovind: > > > >"thank you so much for letting us know about Ken Hovind! We bought his tape > >series. We can't thank you enough. WE appreciate all your emails and > >newsletter. We live in Corona and find it hard to make the meetings...but > >will sure try!!Lynn And Rick" > ><< > > >Uh, Bill M. You know, that letter was not regarding Kent Hovind. They > >only > >mention him in passing and don't really say anything about him. Rather, > >most > >of the letter was in praise you. I think your ego is showing again. > > Tell us, Bill M. Where in that text is any mention made of any "alleged falsehoods taught by ... Kent Hovind"? Where? Show us! I certainly cannot see it. I'm sure that Mark won't be able to see it either. Since Bill B is running in "jerk" mode at present, I have no idea what he'd see or whether he'd even try to look -- I would assume that without looking he would immediately share in your hallucination. > > Now, if you would bother to read what I had written, you would see that I was quoting to you parts of emails I have recently received from a FUNDAMENTALIST Christian, Carl Drews (I can give you his name now because he gives it himself on his web site at http://www.dimensional.com/~jambo/evolution/). In the quoted text, Carl does mention being in a creation/evolution class at church based on "watch[ing] the Answers in Genesis series of videotapes featuring Ken Ham and Gary Parker" and having "[made] available a sheet of corrections to the last week's class at the beginning of the next class". He says that he "would be quite happy for [his classmates] just to repudiate obviously false statements and misquotations - perhaps we can deal with bad science another day." > > Please note carefully that Carl was talking about Ken Ham and GARY PARKER, NOT about Kent Hovind. Go back and read it again. I want you to understand that point very clearly. Carl Drews was NOT talking about Kent Hovind. > > Do you understand, Bill M? Please answer "yes" or "no", so that I can know whether you do now understand what had been clearly written in the first place. It is important that you do listen and that you do understand what had been written so that you don't end up yet again acting like an idiot. > > > Now then, Bill Morgan, regarding the question of your getting to "see the corrections of the alleged falsehoods taught by Ken Ham and [Gary Parker]", I do not have a copy. I will ask Carl for a copy and will pass that copy on to you and to our witnesses. Since Carl is a fellow programmer, I would assume that he had typed them up on his computer and so would already have an electronic copy. > > In the meantime, I will give you an example of a Gary Parker misquotation that Carl presents. As for Kent Hovind, I have already given you a list of sources for critiques of his claims. Since I am sure that you were not listening then, I will give them to you yet again. > > Both presentations will be in separate emails. > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:55:40 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:55:20 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05787; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:55:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01c06003$96b9c7e0$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: <36.ee64f0b.276052ae@aol.com> Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:10:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/06/2000 19:55:57 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net next ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:41 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > Bill M, Carl advised me, though I had known it for decades: > "Creationist citations of mainstream or evolutionist sources are almost always wrong. You _must_ check them out! If you can't find the original source, the citation is worthless." > > Your quotations in "Weird Science", which you have also posted on your site, come immediately to mind. > > From the start, much of Carl's approach has been based on checking creationist sources. His first encounter and epiphany was circa 1985 in a Young Singles Bible Study at his church. Somebody brought in the Chick Pub, "Big Daddy?" (the one you had based your "Weird Science" and "Weird Tour" on) and Carl volunteered to check it out and report back to the group. With the attitude of "I knew that evolution had some holes in it. Let's see what he found.", Carl went to the public library to look up the references that were cited in the pamphlet. > > What Carl found was that the citations were not what the original source had said and that none of the original authors would have agreed with the conclusions drawn in the pamphlet. He was shocked and upset that this Christian pamphlet contained substantially wrong information! He was able to locate most of the references, and all the ones he found had twisted the meaning of original information. > > Carl brought his findings back to the Young Singles group and presented them. Although he tried to be gentle, the group was shocked, surprised, and angry at what the pamphlet's author had done. Carl wrote to the publisher and asked them why a Christian would put together such a poor pamphlet. He got a fairly lengthy response that admitted no wrong, misinterpreted several things he had said, defended the pamphlet, and supplied additional examples to replace the ones I had rejected, also wrong. The entire experience was so upsetting to Carl that he refused to discuss creation/evolution for many years after that. > > Here is how Carl describes "Typical Encounters with Creationists": > > "A few times I have written to the authors of creationist publications, pointing out some inaccuracy or a faulty analysis. The encounter follows the following pattern: > > 1. I write to them. > 2. They write back to me refusing to admit error; "I make no apologies." > They defend their position and manner of expressing it. > I notice some misinterpretation of my letter, or ignoring of what I clearly said. > 3. If I write back to them a second time, rebutting their response or bringing up another point, > 4. They become abusive and insulting. > 5. At this point I have nothing further to do with them." > > Bill M and witnesses, please pay especial attention to the third sentence of point #2. Please note how well Carl describes Bill Morgan's SOP of misinterpreting and distorting what we had said, as well as ignoring the salient points that we are making. Bill M, Carl describes you to a "T". > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (rly-yh01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.33]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:55:57 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-yh01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:55:44 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06085; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:55:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001601c06003$a5329d60$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:10:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/06/2000 19:56:06 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net next ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:41 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > As promised, here is one of the misquotations by Gary Parker that Carl has written about in the references section of his web page, http://www.dimensional.com/~jambo/evolution/references.html. Starting with Carl's mention of it to me: > > > >It's not quite true that you can lie your ass off about anything that's not in the Bible, but it's close to that. It seems that the main problem with lying about non-Biblical sources is that some knowledgeable person might catch you at it.< > > > >Furthermore, after the claim has been exposed [by a person knowledgeable in that field], the higher-echelon creationist may acknowledge the fact to the knowledgeable person (though only if he has to) and then will continue to use it on others as if nothing had happened.< > > > This explains why Gary Parker continues to use a misquote by Richard Lewontin 17 years after Lewontin himself wrote to Impact to complain about it. > > Bill M, the misquotation occured in Impact No. 88, "Creation, Selection, And Variation", by Gary Parker (text at http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-088.htm). Parker writes: > > "Living things also have properties of organization that clearly transcend the potential of their parts. As Harvard's Richard Lewontin recently summarized it, organisms ' … appear to have been carefully and artfully designed.' 4 He calls the 'perfection of organisms' both a challenge to Darwinism and, on a more positive note, 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.'" > 4. Lewontin, Richard, "Adaptation," Scientific American. V. 239. No. 3, 1978, pp. 212-230. > > Bill M, here is what Lewontin actually wrote: > > Richard C. Lewontin, "Adaptation", Scientific American, vol. 239, September 1978, p. 213 > "The manifest fit between organisms and their environment is a major outcome of evolution.... Life forms are more than simply multiple and diverse, however. Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each organism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer. Darwin realized that if a naturalistic theory of evolution was to be successful, it would have to explain the apparent perfection of organisms and not simply their variation." > > Carl's source was Jan Haugland's "Creationist Misquotes" pages [http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/misquote.htm], from which he reproduced the following commentary (NOTE: Haugland's source for the misquote was the JW tract, "The Amazing Design of Living Things", which used Parker's Impact article as a source): > > "(In my [Jan Haugland's] opinion, this is one of the worst misquotes ever, and one who has given JWs much bad publicity on Usenet. Lewontin himself wasn't very happy about it.)" > .. > "In another page, the Jehovah's Witness Life booklet quotes biologist Richard Lewontin as saying: ""Zoologist Richard Lewontin said that organisms 'appear to have been carefully and artfully designed.' He views them as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' " (WTBS, p. 143). The implication here is that Lewontin himself believes that life was intelligently designed by a "Supreme Designer". In fact, Lewontin believes no such thing. As he explained in a letter to a creationist publication debunking the misquote, "The point of my article, 'Adaptation' in Scientific American, from which these snippets were lifted, was precisely that the 'perfection of organisms' is often illusory and that any attempt to describe organisms as perfectly adapted is destined for serious contradictions. Moreover, the appearance of careful and artful design was taken in the nineteenth century before Darwin as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' The past tense of my article ('It was the ma! > rv! > elous fit of organisms to the en > vironment ... that was the chief evidence of Supreme Designer') has been conveniently dropped by creationist Parker in his attempt to pass off this ancient doctrine as modern science." (Lewontin, "Misquoted Scientists Respond," Creation/Evolution VI, Fall 1981, p. 35) Parker's selective editing, repeated later by the Witnesses in their tract, can only be viewed as a deliberate attempt to distort Lewontin's meaning and make him say what creationists would like to hear him say." > > > Bill M, in the same Impact article, I noticed that Gary Parker had included the standard creationist misquotation of Darwin's "Origin of Species" concerning the evolution of the eye. Parker writes: > > "Consider the eye, for example, 'with all its inimitable contrivances,' as Darwin called them, which can admit different amounts of light, focus at different distances, and correct spherical and chromatic aberration. Consider also the splitting of pigment molecules that must be coupled to nerve impulse initiation, and consider that none of these impulses has any meaning apart from millions of neurons integrated into interpretive centers in the brain. Each of these features of optic structure and function is a complex trait itself, and none of these separate components would have any meaning or 'survival value,' until nearly all were put together in a functioning whole of compounded complexities. No wonder Darwin wrote: 'To suppose that the eye, … could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.'" > > Here is what Darwin actually wrote in the "Organs of extreme perfection and complication" section of his chapter on Difficulties of the Theory: > > "To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself fi! > rs! > t originated; but I may remark t > hat several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound." > > So we see that Darwin was saying something quite different from what Gary Parker misrepresented him as having said. If we don't think about, don't reason the problem through, then the evolution of something like the eye would seem absurd. In another edition, I recall Darwin expanding on the "insuperable by our imagination" phrase by saying that the fault lies with the limitations of our ability to visualize it in our minds (by way of analogy, consider that reason, here AKA mathematics, enables us to work with hundreds of dimensions, even though extremely few of us can visualize more than three dimensions, if even that many). Yet when we do reason the problem through, we find that the difficulties imagined do not really exist. Then Darwin goes on for the next two pages listing and describing several "intermediate" forms of the eye that do indeed benefit their possessors as sight organs, including one which is little more than a nerve ending. > > Bill M, do you remember Scott Alexander, the proprietor of the "In the Beginning" creationist shop in The City back around 1990? The shop was decorated with posters copied from ICR books, including the Darwin misquotation about the eye. I provided Scott with a copy of what Darwin had actually written. I could tell that he really did not want to see it. He quietly set it on a shelf behind the counter. I was quite certain that he threw it in the trash, unread, after I left. That taught me a very important lesson about creationists. > > > I relate yet another story of Gary Parker misrepresenting his source in my page on Duane Gish's totally bogus bullfrog-protein claim, "The Bullfrog Affair" at http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/bullfrog.html . > > Here is Gary Parker's claim about alpha-lactalbumin, a protein involved in the production of lactose in mammals which apparently had evolved from lysozyme: > > "By comparing lysozyme and lactalbumin, Dickerson was hoping to 'pin down with great precision' where human beings branched off the mammal line. The results are surprising. In this test, it turned out that humans are more closely related to the CHICKEN than to any living mammal tested!" > (_What is Creation Science?_, Morris & Parker, Revised, 1987, pg 58) > > Here is what Dickerson had actually written: > > "A simple-minded application of the 'clocks' ideas of Chapter 3 [i.e. assuming constant rates of change for proteins to estimate when they had diverged] to these lysozymes and alpha-lactalbumin leads to an apparent contradiction. If alpha-lactalbumin evolved from a mammalian lysozyme during the course of the development of mammals, then it and human lysozyme should be more similar than either is to hen lysozyme. Conversely, the assumption that rates of change have been constant in all three proteins since divergence leads to the conclusion that the alpha-lactalbumins separated from the lysozymes long before the first appearance of terrestrial vertebrates. Where is the fallacy? > > "The fallacy, of course, is in the assumption of unchanging rates of accumulation of tolerable mutations. For one particular protein, performing much the same task in a wide spectrum of species, this may be a valid working hypothesis. But when circumstances arise in the environment such that a duplicated gene is being altered, the better to perform a NEW function, selection pressure is unusually severe and changes in sequence will be unusually rapid." > (_The Structure and Action of Proteins_, Richard Dickerson and Irving Geis, 1969, page 78) > > Dickerson clearly indicates that this was a simple-minded application of an idea that was meant to apply only for a protein whose function remained constant. The assumption that the rates at which all three proteins changed would remain constant is unwarranted and inconsistent with the ideas of evolution. Ironically, "creation scientists" traditionally attack any assumption of a constant rate, except of course for their own assumptions. > > > In the same article, I present yet another set of false claims made by Gary Parker. > > As we know, the pattern of protein comparisons closely matches what we would expect to result from evolution. "Creation scientists" try to counter this body of biochemical evidence by claiming that certain protein comparisons actually show humans to be more closely related to vastly different organisms (e.g. bullfrogs, chickens, rattlesnakes) than to chimpanzees. A classic example is offered by former biologist Gary Parker, formerly of the ICR, in his book, _Creation: The Facts of Life_, in which he lists several molecules that show humans to be more closely related to quite different organisms than to apes: > > Molecule Nearest Relative to Humans > -------- -------------------------- > Fetal Hemoglobin Horse > Tear Enzymes Chicken > Albumin Bullfrog > Blood Antigen A Butterbean > Cholesterol Level Gartersnake > Milk Chemistry Donkey > > Drs. Awbrey and Thwaites examined the literature and Parker's references and published their findings ("A Closer Look at Some Biochemical Data that 'Support' Creation" by Frank T. Awbrey and William M. Thwaites, _Creation/Evolution_ Issue VII, 1982, pp 14-17). They found (quoting freely) that for: > > Fetal Hemoglobin -- > Hemoglobin has four globin molecules, each arranged around a central iron atom and a porphyrin ring. Human fetal hemoglobin has two alpha globins and two gamma globins, each with 146 amino acids. Horses don't have gamma globins. Chimpanzees do, and it is identical to that of humans. So creationists conclude that a molecule that doesn't exist is more similar to a human molecule than is an identical chimpanzee molecule. > > Tear Enzymes -- > The enzyme referred to here is lysozyme, which is found in human milk, tears, leukocytes, etc. Variants exist in tissues of other species, for example, in chicken egg whites. Chicken lysozyme differs from human lysozyme by 51 out of 130 amino acids. Chimpanzee lysozyme is identical to human lysozyme. Either creationists have ignored the literature or they apparently believe that 51 is less than zero. > > Albumin -- > Human and chimpanzee albumin differ by six out of 580 amino acids. Human and bullfrog albumins differ so much that they don't cross-react in immunological tests. > > Blood Antigen A -- > This is one of the molecules that determine blood types. They are called glycoproteins because they have sugars attached to a protein. Butterbeans contain a sugar configuration that is similar enough to the glycoprotein sugar that it can react with antibodies directed against the A blood type if the butterbean sugar is at a high concentration. Chimpanzees have blood antigens that are identical or nearly identical to those of humans. Having no blood, butterbeans obviously have no blood antigens. > > Cholesterol Level -- > Cholesterol is a simple lipid (a wax) and its structure doesn't vary among species. Furthermore, its concentration can vary several hundredfold in an individual human depending upon diet and genetic background. Therefore, it is a useless molecule for determining genetic similarity. This datum isn't just wrong, it's nonexistent. > > Milk Chemistry -- > No direct comparison of human and chimpanzee milk chemistry could be found. However, it was found that human milk proteins (whey and casein) are much more like macaque milk than donkey milk. Human and chimpanzee milk lysozymes are identical. Even this limited comparison disproves the creationist claim that the donkey is our nearest relative based on milk chemistry. > > > So, Bill M, is that enough to tide you over until I get a copy of Carl's list? > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (rly-xd05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.170]) by air-xd05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:56:06 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:55:35 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05967; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:55:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001001c06003$9f65ef40$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:10:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/06/2000 19:57:00 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net next ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:42 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Now, here is the repeat of the Kent Hovind information that I promised you earlier (unlike Bill Morgan, I deliver on my promises or at least make a determined effort to): Yes, I am familiar with Kent Hovind. Many Christians and creationists consider his scientific competence to be questionable. One creationist associated with a major creationist organization told me off the record that they are very concerned about Hovind's claims and the detrimental effects that they can have on [a Christian's faith. -- accidentally left out in the original] Another Christian friend used to be a certifiable YEC addict until he watched a Kent Hovind video. In his own words: "One day, being psyched-up for a new fix, I popped in a video I had received from a young man at Church. The tape was a series of debates (about eight), between a famous "young earther" and various evolutionists. After viewing them, I found my jaw on the floor. I truly expected these evolutionists to roll over and die after being presented with this battering of "facts" - they didn't! I was truely numbed and frankly, pretty upset with the manners of this "young earther." I had to come to some serious conclusions that day. -- Scientists have answers for each point raised, e.g. shrinking sun, polystrate fossils etc., they were NOT surprised at all! -- Creation Science is not science. I watched as this creationist fellow was repeatedly being cornered, relying on miracle after miracle to answer their questions. Yes, God can and does perform miracles, but these were miracles that were not even in the Bible - that's not science! -- I have been a hypocrite! My favorite reasoning with skeptics is to challenge them to examine both sides of an issue before reaching their conclusions. "How can we dialogue fairly if we only have one point of view?" I would ask. But I have NEVER given an evolutionist nor an old earth creationist the opportunity to present their case! I talked to my pastor (a young-earther), about my new discoveries. He warned me as so many other "creationists" have, that to continue on this path was dangerous and would only lead to me falling away from the faith. ... Since then, I have corresponded with several Christians who have traveled the same path as I have. One thing that is always agreed upon is the damage young-earth creationism can do to souls; how many believers they have seen fall away. We have been taught that the Bible demands a young earth interpretation and when the facts of nature become inescapable - our faith becomes shattered! My pastor was wrong, the opposite was the case. If "R" had been offered the truth from the beginning, he would never have experienced the turmoil he went through. When "R" could no longer deny that the universe was billions of years old, the only option left for him was to deny the Bible. How many others have been disheartened in like manner?" I have also visited Hovind's site, where he claims to have researched his material thoroughly. However, it is obvious that that is not true. In particular in his article that the universe is not billions of years old, I observed that ALL of his cited sources were by other creationists and that he had not tried to verify THEIR sources (we should talk some time about how creationist claims circulate among creationists and are accepted uncritically, judged only by how convincing they sound). I know that, because he uses Ackermann's "It's a Young Earth After All" as a source for his moon dust argument. In turn, Ackermann had relied almost entirely on a reference to a "1976" NASA document "written well into the space age." I've read that "1976" NASA document. It was "Meteor Orbits and Dust", a 1967 printing of papers presented at a 1965 conference. The actual claim that Ackermann uses was written by Harold Slusher, who misrepresented the date of the document and took values out of it to plug into a formula of his own making. That formula inflated its results by a factor of 10,000 by incorporating extra factors that the document and the rules of math clearly say would not apply. You can read about it on my Moon Dust page, http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/moondust.html . If Hovind had actually done his research as he should have, back to the primary source, then he would have known that he was basing his moon dust claim on a hoax. He also fell for the Oņate Man hoax [search engines do not seem to like "ņ", so do your web search on "Onyate Man"]. In Philadelphia on 7 May 1999, he told the packed audience at Calvary Chapel about a recent fossil find that scientists were trying to cover up: the fossilized remains of a human in the jaws of an allosaurus reported at www.darwindisproved.com ! That "find" was a hoax created by members of New Mexicans for Science & Reason (NMSR). You can read all about it at http://www.darwindisproved.com/april_fool.html and the original at http://www.darwindisproved.com/Archive.html . Here is what Hovind has to say about it in a phone conversation with Stephen Meyers, as related by Meyers [see http://hometown.aol.com/ibss3/hovind.html]: "He said that someone told him that morning about www.darwindisproved.com so he put it in his presentation, later that day he discovered it was a hoax and removed it (I would think you would want to check out a web site before recommending it to a large audience)." Of course, his having removed that claim from his presentation does not help most of the Philadelphia audience who still have not heard that it was a hoax, so the damage has been done. But even worse is that he had simply accepted HEARSAY at face value, did not make even the slightest attempt to verify it, and presented it to the public authoritatively as a solid fact As I had discovered on his website, HOVIND DOES NOT DO HIS HOMEWORK. He in fact does NOT research his claims. The subject of Hovind's PhD always comes up. Patriot University is now nothing more than a diploma mill, but Hovind says that it was accredited when he got his degree. However, there are several glaring irregularities about his thesis, not the least of which being that Hovind is constantly rewriting it and a complete copy is nowhere to be found (a doctoral candidate publishes the final form of his thesis, a copy of which is kept by the school). The complete story on this can be found at "The Dissertation Kent Hovind Doesn't Want You to Read: A Review of Kent Hovind's Thesis" by Karen Bartelt, Ph.D., at http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm . Bill M, I think I know why you admire Kent Hovind so much. He also refuses to engage in a written debate! Read about it at http://www.nmsr.org/HOVIND.HTM . Bill M will especially admire how Hovind dances about in all directions to avoid the issues. Dr. Karen E. Bartelt also reports "On the Till-Hovind Debate" at http://www.holysmoke.org/hovind2.htm . This tells you something about Hovind's presentation style -- too rapid-fire for anybody to actually think about what he is saying. That must be why he doesn't want to engage in a written debate; he doesn't want his audience to be able to think about and test his claims. This page also includes Hovind's claim about the 11-foot human skeleton. I forget if he uses it here, but one of Hovind's tactics is the "Christian Death Threat": the last thing he says is that his opponent is going to Hell. Which is a natural lead-in to Ed Babinski's "Cretinism or Evilution? No. 3: Men Over Ten Feel Tall" at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part2.html. Here, Babinski (a former fundamentalist and YEC) tried his best to research Hovind and Baugh's claim of a skeleton found in an Italian mine. What is more disturbing than the absolute lack of any evidence for this claim, is that none of the creationists Babinski was trying to work with had any desire or interest in verifying their claim, even though Babinski was doing all the work for them. Supports my current thesis that creationists only care about how convincing a creationist claim sounds; they really do not care whether it's actually true. Have you heard the Hovind claim about an ancient 90-foot plum tree that had been found in Siberia, frozen in place and bearing fruit? Ed Babinski checked that one out too, as he reports in "A Frozen Ninety Foot Tall Plum Tree with Ripe Fruit and Green Leaves Found North of the Arctic Circle?" at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part3.html . As I read this and saw the German explorer's name, von Toll ("toll" = "crazy"), I thought that was part of the fabrication, but, no, that name was about the only part that was true. Another creationist had gotten the real story from a second- or third-generation source and fabricated the plum-tree story from it. Hovind got the story from that creationist (or from the n-th creationist to have passed it on) and didn't bother to check it out. This is yet another example of Kent Hovind not actually doing the research that he boasts about doing (guess that means he's lying about researching his claims). Here are a few more sites for more information about Hovind and his claims: "How Good Are Those Young-Earth Arguments? A Close Look at Dr. Hovind's List of Young-Earth Arguments and Other Claims" by Dave Matson, April 21, 1994 http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/matson-vs-hovind.html An excellent review of Hovind's claims and critiques thereof. Contains the best and most thorough coverage of Slusher's moon-dust claim that I have seen anywhere. Hovind "critiques" Matson at his site, but if he had actually read it then he would know that his moon-dust claim is based on a hoax [see above]. The Wild, Wild World of Kent Hovind. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/hovind/wild_hovind.html No Answers in Genesis! http://www.onthenet.com.au/~stear/ This is the parent site of a number of the pages listed here and contains several links to creationist topics, including others about Hovind. CSE: Specific Responses to Claims Made By Kent Hovind and the Creation Science Evangelism Web Pages http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~hjlecken/hovind.html "Dr." Kent Hovind http://www.geocities.com/odonate/hovind.htm "Kent Hovind is a Kwazy Kweationist" http://www.skepticfriends.org/letter31.html ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (rly-yc02.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.34]) by air-yc02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:56:59 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-yc02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:56:13 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06197; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:55:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001c01c06003$aa239180$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: <8.d28b554.27605326@aol.com> Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:10:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net id TAA06197 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/06/2000 21:19:07 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), DWise1@aol.com, billyjack321@hotmail.com Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do not bother responding at all. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bequette To: ; Cc: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:10 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. next ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:41 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > Bill M, Carl advised me, though I had known it for decades: > "Creationist citations of mainstream or evolutionist sources are almost always wrong. You _must_ check them out! If you can't find the original source, the citation is worthless." > > Your quotations in "Weird Science", which you have also posted on your site, come immediately to mind. > > From the start, much of Carl's approach has been based on checking creationist sources. His first encounter and epiphany was circa 1985 in a Young Singles Bible Study at his church. Somebody brought in the Chick Pub, "Big Daddy?" (the one you had based your "Weird Science" and "Weird Tour" on) and Carl volunteered to check it out and report back to the group. With the attitude of "I knew that evolution had some holes in it. Let's see what he found.", Carl went to the public library to look up the references that were cited in the pamphlet. > > What Carl found was that the citations were not what the original source had said and that none of the original authors would have agreed with the conclusions drawn in the pamphlet. He was shocked and upset that this Christian pamphlet contained substantially wrong information! He was able to locate most of the references, and all the ones he found had twisted the meaning of original information. > > Carl brought his findings back to the Young Singles group and presented them. Although he tried to be gentle, the group was shocked, surprised, and angry at what the pamphlet's author had done. Carl wrote to the publisher and asked them why a Christian would put together such a poor pamphlet. He got a fairly lengthy response that admitted no wrong, misinterpreted several things he had said, defended the pamphlet, and supplied additional examples to replace the ones I had rejected, also wrong. The entire experience was so upsetting to Carl that he refused to discuss creation/evolution for many years after that. > > Here is how Carl describes "Typical Encounters with Creationists": > > "A few times I have written to the authors of creationist publications, pointing out some inaccuracy or a faulty analysis. The encounter follows the following pattern: > > 1. I write to them. > 2. They write back to me refusing to admit error; "I make no apologies." > They defend their position and manner of expressing it. > I notice some misinterpretation of my letter, or ignoring of what I clearly said. > 3. If I write back to them a second time, rebutting their response or bringing up another point, > 4. They become abusive and insulting. > 5. At this point I have nothing further to do with them." > > Bill M and witnesses, please pay especial attention to the third sentence of point #2. Please note how well Carl describes Bill Morgan's SOP of misinterpreting and distorting what we had said, as well as ignoring the salient points that we are making. Bill M, Carl describes you to a "T". > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (rly-xb02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.103]) by air-xb03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 00:19:07 1900 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 00:18:46 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eB75Igk59232; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:18:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <004201c0600d$7d960940$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , , References: <001601c06003$a5329d60$31708218@we.mediaone.net> Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 23:04:25 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/06/2000 22:20:22 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark), DWise1@aol.com, billyjack321@hotmail.com next -----Original Message----- From: Mark To: Bill Bequette ; DWise1@aol.com ; billyjack321@hotmail.com Date: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 9:18 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do not >bother responding at all. > >Mark >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Bequette >To: ; >Cc: ; >Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:10 PM >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >next >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Cc: ; ; >Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 6:41 PM >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >> Bill M, Carl advised me, though I had known it for decades: >> "Creationist citations of mainstream or evolutionist sources are almost >always wrong. You _must_ check them out! If you can't find the original >source, the citation is worthless." >> >> Your quotations in "Weird Science", which you have also posted on your >site, come immediately to mind. >> >> From the start, much of Carl's approach has been based on checking >creationist sources. His first encounter and epiphany was circa 1985 in a >Young Singles Bible Study at his church. Somebody brought in the Chick Pub, >"Big Daddy?" (the one you had based your "Weird Science" and "Weird Tour" >on) and Carl volunteered to check it out and report back to the group. With >the attitude of "I knew that evolution had some holes in it. Let's see what >he found.", Carl went to the public library to look up the references that >were cited in the pamphlet. >> >> What Carl found was that the citations were not what the original source >had said and that none of the original authors would have agreed with the >conclusions drawn in the pamphlet. He was shocked and upset that this >Christian pamphlet contained substantially wrong information! He was able >to locate most of the references, and all the ones he found had twisted the >meaning of original information. >> >> Carl brought his findings back to the Young Singles group and presented >them. Although he tried to be gentle, the group was shocked, surprised, and >angry at what the pamphlet's author had done. Carl wrote to the publisher >and asked them why a Christian would put together such a poor pamphlet. He >got a fairly lengthy response that admitted no wrong, misinterpreted several >things he had said, defended the pamphlet, and supplied additional examples >to replace the ones I had rejected, also wrong. The entire experience was >so upsetting to Carl that he refused to discuss creation/evolution for many >years after that. >> >> Here is how Carl describes "Typical Encounters with Creationists": >> >> "A few times I have written to the authors of creationist publications, >pointing out some inaccuracy or a faulty analysis. The encounter follows >the following pattern: >> >> 1. I write to them. >> 2. They write back to me refusing to admit error; "I make no apologies." >> They defend their position and manner of expressing it. >> I notice some misinterpretation of my letter, or ignoring of what I >clearly said. >> 3. If I write back to them a second time, rebutting their response or >bringing up another point, >> 4. They become abusive and insulting. >> 5. At this point I have nothing further to do with them." >> >> Bill M and witnesses, please pay especial attention to the third sentence >of point #2. Please note how well Carl describes Bill Morgan's SOP of >misinterpreting and distorting what we had said, as well as ignoring the >salient points that we are making. Bill M, Carl describes you to a "T". >> > > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:20:21 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:19:28 -0500 Received: from wb (we-24-130-113-13.we.mediaone.net [24.130.113.13]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02988; Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:19:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000401c06015$f5a0a6e0$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Mark" , , Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 22:21:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 07-Dec-00 07:05:22 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: spambuster@gigagod.com CC: billyjack1@hotmail.com, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: DWise1 >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do not bother responding at all.<< That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears and yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the condition start to set in when he converted? ################################################ Subj: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 07-Dec-00 07:15:24 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: DWise1, editor@liberator.net How about that, a double-Billing. Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa Mesa store should have them too. The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to the other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 07-Dec-00 09:55:25 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com CC: billyjack1@hotmail.com, DWise1@aol.com next ----- Original Message ----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: spambuster@gigagod.com Cc: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 7:05 AM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do not bother responding at all.<< That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears and yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the condition start to set in when he converted? --------------------
next
----- Original Message -----
From: DWise1@aol.com
To: spambuster@gigagod.com
Cc: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods.
>>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do not bother responding at all.<< That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears and yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can.  He wants to witness to us that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him.  Or did the condition start to set in when he converted?
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.1]) by air-yg02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:55:25 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:54:56 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust81.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.81]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21961; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:54:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00e601c06076$475787a0$e720113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: <41.47c360b.27610132@aol.com> Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:04:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CC_01C0602C.B21DD160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 07-Dec-00 09:56:45 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net next ----- Original Message ----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 7:15 AM Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills How about that, a double-Billing. Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa Mesa store should have them too. The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to the other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". --------------------
next
----- Original Message -----
From: DWise1@aol.com
To: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 7:15 AM
Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
How about that, a double-Billing. Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar.  I saw them at the Irvine Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa Mesa store should have them too. The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to the other Bill.  With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, or at least rewrite history to his convenience.  It might prove more difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all.  Anything would be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!".
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (rly-yd05.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.5]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:56:45 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:54:56 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust81.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.81]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21984; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:54:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00e701c06076$486415a0$e720113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: <38.eef7ab2.2761038c@aol.com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 09:04:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C0602C.BA4E6020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 07-Dec-00 12:05:34 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billbeq@mediaone.net CC: billyjack1@hotmail.com, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. Excellent. ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 07-Dec-00 13:09:03 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com CC: billyjack1@hotmail.com, DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net next ----- Original Message ----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. Excellent. --------------------
next
----- Original Message -----
From: DWise1@aol.com
To: billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 12:05 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. Excellent.
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:09:03 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Thu, 07 Dec 2000 16:08:33 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust81.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.81]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16425; Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:08:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <010901c06091$505a6640$e720113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: Cc: , , References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 13:04:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0106_01C0604E.40F83DA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 07-Dec-00 18:25:44 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net File: VideoLetter.doc (32256 bytes) DL Time (TCP/IP): < 1 minute Bill M, I sent my request to Carl and have just received his reply, which I share with you here: >>Subj: RE: A Request, if you may Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:47:22 AM Eastern Standard Time From: "Carl Drews" To: David Wise - You and Bill Morgan are in luck. My sheet of corrections evolved into the References section of my web site: http://www.dimensional.com/~jambo/evolution/references.html I was afraid of the links breaking or becoming obsolete, and that is why I provided keywords for searching. I did not expect them to break so soon, though - perhaps the servers were merely busy. If you can send me the broken links I will try from here. I mixed all the references together, so only some of them refer to the AiG video series. But the attached letter (a WordPad document) is directed toward the video series. You may pass this along to Bill Morgan. Carl Drews December 7, 2000 << I have attached his letter to this email. It is a Word document which I was able to load into WordPad and read just fine. In case you have difficulty downloading it, I will also send it as a second email. Be advised that the file size is 32,256 bytes, so it's going to be a long email. Since your actions indicate that you still do not know how to use the Clipboard, I will not send the email version of the letter until after I have instructed you in use of the Clipboard. PS Carl just advised me: >>I forgot to mention. That VideoLetter is supposed to be private; it should not go any farther than you and Bill. I have sent substantially the same letter to Answers in Genesis, but my public critique of them is much more muted (in the References). This is how I believe conflict should be addressed, in accordance with Matthew 18. << Bill M and witnesses, please honor Carl's request. PPS Carl just informed me: >>Actually, I was NOT permitted to give them out to my fellow students. The most I was permitted to do by the facilitator was to set them on a chair at the front of the class and off to one side. The other students had to choose on their own to pick up my sheets, and most (about 8 out of 12) chose not to.<< Reminds me of the CSAOC meeting where Frank Steiger had brought several copies of his essay explaining the Second Law of Thermodynamics and hardly any of the creationists went even close to them. ################################################ Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: 07-Dec-00 18:27:55 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>Can I paste teh e mail? No. << Bill Morgan, that statement is utterly false! How dare you insult us with such an obvious falsehood? You told us that you "know what clipboard and pasting is", but your statement here shows us that you obviously do not know what it is or how to use it. Bill M, why can't you tell the truth about even the little things? Bill M, what software are you using to read your emails? We already know that you are running Windows. The ability to copy to and paste from the Clipboard is a very basic service that is included in almost every single commercial Windows application that I have seen. Tell us, Bill M, what software are you using to read your email? Bill M! I had repeatedly offered to instruct you in the use of the Clipboard and you repeatedly refused instruction. Well I'm through offering. Dammit, man! You are going to learn it right now! PAY ATTENTION! LISTEN! Because you are going to need it very soon. LISTEN! Because I will have absolutely no sympathy for your whining and snivelling that you "cannot paste teh e mail." There will be absolutely no excuse from now on! LESSON BEGINS: The Clipboard is an idea borrowed from the MacIntosh (so if you have become a Mac weenie, you STILL have no excuse!). The Clipboard is a portion of memory shared by all the applications that are running on your system. It is used to temporarily hold a chunk of data from one document while any of the other applications, or even the originating application, can insert any number of copies of that data into their own documents. Thus, the Clipboard is used to copy or move data from one document to another. It can be any kind of data, including graphics, though text data is the most common. The only restriction is that the receiving document must be able to handle the kind of data that is currently in the Clipboard. Another restriction is that the Clipboard can only hold one data item at a time, though Office 2000 features multiple clipboards. The Clipboard supports three operations: 1. Cut -- copies the data into the Clipboard and removes it from the originating document. Performing a Cut operation removes all previous data from the Clipboard. 2. Copy -- copies the data into the Clipboard while leaving the originating document unchanged. Performing a Copy operation removes all previous data from the Clipboard. 3. Paste -- copies the data from the Clipboard into the receiving document at the designated location. Data in the Clipboard can be pasted into any number of documents any number of times. You should always find the cut/copy/paste commands in the Edit menu, where they are called "Cut", "Copy", and "Paste". If your application has a toolbar, then you will find buttons for these three operations there, too. There are also control-key shortcuts available, but you should stick with the Edit menu for now. In order to cut or copy text, you need to select that text. To select a block of text in a document: 1. Move the mouse cursor to the beginning of the text you want to select. 2. Click and hold down the left mouse button. 3. Move the mouse cursor to the end of the text you want to select. This is called "dragging". The visual cue that the text has been selected is that it will be displayed in reverse-video (eg, white on black background instead of the rest of the document's black on a white background); this is called "high-lighting". If you want to select the entire document, you could either drag from beginning to end or you could use a shortcut. In most applications, the Edit menu has a "Select All" command which will select the entire document. Now that the text has been selected, you may either cut or copy. Here are the instructions from the Windows help (it includes selection of the text, but without explanation of how to): To copy information into another document: 1. In the document that contains the information you want to copy, drag the pointer over the information you want to select. 2. On the Edit menu, click Copy. 3. In the document where you want the information to appear, click the place where you want to put the information. 4. On the Edit menu, click Paste. The information is placed in its new location and is still in the original document. To move information between documents: 1. In the document that contains the information you want to move, drag the pointer over the information you want to select. 2. On the Edit menu, click Cut. 3. In the document where you want the information to appear, click the place where you want to put the information. 4. On the Edit menu, click Paste. The information is removed from the original document and is placed in its new location. END OF LESSON There you have it, Bill M. Just that easy, just that quick. Now you have no excuse. ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 07-Dec-00 18:32:08 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net As promised, here is the text of Carl Drews' letter, just in case you have difficulty downloading the Word document in the other email. Bill Morgan! Copy this email and paste it for later reference! You have already read my lesson on using the Clipboard. YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE NOW! As a reminder, here is a subsequent message to me from Carl: >>I forgot to mention. That VideoLetter is supposed to be private; it should not go any farther than you and Bill. I have sent substantially the same letter to Answers in Genesis, but my public critique of them is much more muted (in the References). This is how I believe conflict should be addressed, in accordance with Matthew 18. << ---------------------------------------------------- Carl Drews September 12, 2000 Dear Pastor Steve and Pastor Jimmy, I am writing again concerning the Evolution/Creation class. I am writing to both of you because you both were active in promoting the class in church. Pastor Steve, thank you for your letter in reply. I have been looking for the truth in what speakers Ken Ham and Gary Parker say, and I have learned a few things that I did not know before. 1. The Tasaday tribe in the Philippines was indigenous and isolated, but it is not a true "Stone Age" tribe as originally billed. Certain important aspects of their life (stone tools, cave-dwelling, and leaf clothes) were faked for money under the direction of a Philippine official named Manuel Elizalde during the Marcos regime. See Reference (1). 2. The appendix in humans does have certain useful functions. The appendix serves an important role in the fetus and in young adults (endocrine cells). Among adult humans, the appendix is now thought to be involved primarily in immune functions (2). I can agree with Ken Ham when he interprets God giving man "dominion" to mean that Christians should take the lead in environmental issues (September 10). I agree with him when he asserts that acknowledging God as the Creator and understanding mankind's fall into Sin is the foundation for the Gospel message of Jesus Christ (September 10). We are all seeking the truth, from the words of Jesus in John 18:37 to the anti-Darwin bumper stickers. I have also been following the advice in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 ("Test everything"). I investigate the claims that Ken Ham and Gary Parker make, and I look up the quotations they supply. I have found that a disturbing number of these claims and quotations are incorrect. First, a few of the claims: 3. On August 20 Gary Parker spoke about polystrate fossils. He stated that "Evolutionists are mystified by these things," and "No one has proposed a way that they can form slowly." Those statements are not correct. Geologist John William Dawson described polystrate tree fossils in 1868 and gave a good explanation for their formation. Modern geologists are comfortable with these fossils, and call them "in situ trees." (3) I found examples of polystrate fossils forming now at Neskowin Beach in Oregon. (4) Such findings are outside the popular media, but if Gary Parker is teaching on these matters he should know about these cases and not claim that evolutionists can't figure them out. He gave an example of a non-tree polystrate fossil (a nautilus), but provided no reference for me to check. 4. On August 27 Ken Ham displayed a series of laughable explanations for the extinction of the dinosaurs 65 million years ago, and ridiculed paleontologists because they cannot agree on a single explanation for the extinction. But they can, and they did so 10 years ago. The consensus is that the dinosaurs were driven to extinction by a meteorite that struck the earth at Chicxulub in Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula. (5) The Chicxulub crater was reported in Time Magazine in 1995. The class facilitator told us that the videotapes were made in 1998. Whether Ken Ham agrees with the theory or not, it is the commonly accepted theory in scientific circles today, and he should know about it and not mislead his audience. 5. On September 3 Gary Parker spoke of Punctuated Equilibrium, the so-called "Hopeful Monster" theory. He described it as sudden and radical mutation, "a bird hatches out of a dinosaur egg." He then quoted Stephen Jay Gould, the co-author of Punctuated Equilibrium, criticizing this theory. I believe that Gary Parker is bearing false witness here. Richard Goldschmidt proposed the "Hopeful Monster" theory in 1940. Gould and Niles Eldredge proposed Punctuated Equilibrium in 1972. (6) These two theories are not the same theory. They have some similarities, but Gary Parker gave the impression that Gould was admitting problems with his own theory when in fact he was referring to a 32-year-old previous theory. Parker has the responsibility as a teacher to research evolutionary theories and represent them correctly, even if he disagrees with them. The second class of incorrect statements are the misquotations. I believe that someone has misquoted an author if they have changed or distorted the meaning of the original author. This is the criterion that we hold our Bible readers to. We do not allow a preacher to take a Biblical verse out of context so that it has a different meaning. We should expect the same standard for non-Biblical sources. An out-of-context quotation is not telling the whole truth. When I add the context below, I show the original quoted section in bold. 6. On September 3 Gary Parker quoted Darwin speaking about the human eye. This one is the granddaddy of all misquotes; it is familiar to those who read creationist literature. Parker had more ellipses than this sentence, but I know he ended his quotation with the same five words. "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." - Charles Darwin, Origin of Species. But Darwin does not stop after the word "degree": "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of Spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei ["the voice of the people = the voice of God "], as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certain the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case; and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfe ct and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, should not be considered as subversive of the theory." - The Origin of Species, published by Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., 1952. I claim that Gary Parker's selection changes Darwin's meaning. Darwin is saying that the formation of the eye may seem absurd to common sense, but upon further scientific analysis it is indeed reasonable. By the way, Darwin concludes his discussion of the eye with admiration for the Creator who made it: "In living bodies, variation will cause the slight alterations, generation will multiply them almost infinitely, and natural selection will pick out with unerring skill each improvement. Let this process go on for millions on millions of years; and during each year on millions of individuals of many kinds; and may we not believe that a living optical instrument might thus be formed as superior to one of glass, as the works of the Creator are to those of man?" 7. A quotation from the 1980 Chicago Conference on Macroevolution was displayed three times during the videos. Gary Parker and Ken Ham interpreted this quotation to mean that evolutionists admit that microevolution can't result in big evolutionary changes. "The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No." - Roger Lewin, "Evolutionary Theory Under Fire," Science magazine, November 21, 1980, page 883. I looked up this 20-year-old article at the Boulder library. The paragraph reads as follows: "The central question of the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underlying microevolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macroevolution. At the risk of doing violence to the positions of some of the people at the meeting, the answer can be given as a clear, No. What is not so clear, however, is whether microevolution is totally decoupled from macroevolution: the two can more probably be seen as a continuum with a notable overlap." The rest of the article describes the state of evolutionary science in 1980; the old guard of classical Darwinists were coming to grips with Gould's theory of Punctuated Equilibrium. They seem to be saying in 1980 that microevolution happens as a species adjusts to a stable environment. Macroevolution happens when the environment changes drastically and populations are isolated. However, natural selection and mutation are present in both kinds of evolution. 8. On August 20 Gary Parker quoted from William Stansfield, "The Science of Evolution", 1977. He did not include the sentences after the word "clock". "It is obvious that radiometric techniques may not be the absolute dating methods that they are claimed to be. Age estimates on a given geological stratum by different radiometric methods are often quite different (sometimes by hundreds of millions of years). There is no absolutely reliable long-term radiological ``clock.'' The uncertainties inherent in radiometric dating are disturbing to geologists and evolutionists, but their overall interpretation supports the concept of a long history of geological evolution. The flaws in radiometric dating methods are considered by creationists to be sufficient justification for denying their use as evidence against the young earth theory." I think that Gary Parker has distorted and omitted the original meaning of the author. 9. On September 3 Gary Parker quoted some snippets of an article by Richard Lewontin. I was not able to copy down all the quotations from the video, so I looked up Impact article 88 at www.icr.org: "Living things also have properties of organization that clearly transcend the potential of their parts. As Harvard's Richard Lewontin recently summarized it, organisms " … appear to have been carefully and artfully designed." 4 He calls the "perfection of organisms" both a challenge to Darwinism and, on a more positive note, "the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer." " 4. Lewontin, Richard, "Adaptation," Scientific American. V. 239. No. 3, 1978, pp. 212-230. Here is the original passage: "The manifest fit between organisms and their environment is a major outcome of evolution.... Life forms are more than simply multiple and diverse, however. Organisms fit remarkably well into the external world in which they live. They have morphologies, physiologies and behaviors that appear to have been carefully and artfully designed to enable each organism to appropriate the world around it for its own life. It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment, much more than the great diversity of forms, that was the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer. Darwin realized that if a naturalistic theory of evolution was to be successful, it would have to explain the apparent perfection of organisms and not simply their variation." The web site http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/misquote.htm adds additional information and commentary: The implication here is that Lewontin himself believes that life was intelligently designed by a "Supreme Designer". In fact, Lewontin believes no such thing. As he explained in a letter to a creationist publication debunking the misquote, "The point of my article, 'Adaptation' in Scientific American, from which these snippets were lifted, was precisely that the 'perfection of organisms' is often illusory and that any attempt to describe organisms as perfectly adapted is destined for serious contradictions. Moreover, the appearance of careful and artful design was taken in the nineteenth century before Darwin as 'the chief evidence of a Supreme Designer.' The past tense of my article ('It was the marvelous fit of organisms to the environment ... that was the chief evidence of Supreme Designer') has been conveniently dropped by creationist Parker in his attempt to pass off this ancient doctrine as modern science." (Lewontin, "Misquoted Scientists Respond," Creation/Evolution VI, Fall 1981, p. 35) 10. On August 20 Gary Parker supplied the following quotation by Professor E.J.H. Corner of the Cambridge University botany school, in Corner's book "Contemporary Botanical Thought", 1961. (The actual quotation on the video may have started 5 words earlier.) "...to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favour of special creation." I wondered why he was quoting a source almost 40 years old, but I looked up the context at http://www.cft.org.za/articles/evquote.htm "The theory of evolution is not merely the theory of the origin of species, but the only explanation of the fact that organisms can be classified into this hierarchy of natural affinity. Much evidence can be adduced in favour of the theory of evolution - from biology, bio-geography and palaeontology, but I still think that, to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favour of special creation. If, however, another explanation could be found for this hierarchy of classification, it would be the knell of the theory of evolution. Can you imagine how an orchid, a duckweed, and a palm have come from the same ancestry, and have we any evidence for this assumption? The evolutionist must be prepared with an answer, but I think that most would break down before an inquisition. Textbooks hoodwink. A series of more and more complicated plants is introduced - the alga, the fungus, the bryophyte, and so on, and examples are added eclectically in support of one or another theory - and that is held to be a presentation of evolution. If the world of plants consisted only of these few textbook types of standard botany, the idea of evolution might never have dawned, and the backgrounds of these textbooks are the temperate countries which, at best, are poor places to study world vegetation. The point, of course, is that there are thousands and thousands of living plants, predominantly tropical, which have never entered general botany, yet they are the bricks with which the taxonomist has built his temple of evolution, and where else have we to worship?" Prof. E. J. H. Corner (Professor of Tropical Botany, Cambridge University, UK), 'Evolution' in Contemporary Botanical Thought, Anna M. Macleod and L. S. Cobley (editors), Oliver and Boyd, for the Botanical Society of Edinburgh, 1961, p. 97. That last sentence puzzles me (and I certainly don't like the religious "temple" analogy), but that is the entire quotation as it appeared on the web site. I think Corner is urging that tropical plants be catalogued and put into textbooks, and those tropical plants will support evolution. These ten cases are a sample of the mistakes and misquotations that I found. Ham and Parker supply the references for their quotations so that their listeners can look them up, but I observed little evidence that other students in the class were checking these things to be sure that they were true, like the Bereans in Acts 17:11. The cases described in the video series were not hard to look up with the aid of Internet search engines and a library card. Other common errors are associated with the updates that the theory of evolution has undergone in the 140 years since "The Origin of Species" was published: the rate of evolutionary change, the environmental catastrophes that influence change, and the splitting of the descent tree. Each one of these changes serves as a point of attack or misquote for Ken Ham and Gary Parker, usually with regard to an obsolete version of the theory. Likewise when Gould speaks about the scarcity of transitional fossils, we will surely hear a comment that "there are no transitional fossils," when in fact there are merely fewer than Darwin would have liked to see. To summarize, the scholarship demonstrated by speakers Ken Ham and Gary Parker on the "Answers in Genesis" videotape series is poor. The class facilitator emphasized the need for creationists to be accurate and truthful. If some point they make is incorrect, people will be suspicious of the entire presentation. I feel that the errors they make are numerous and serious enough to raise doubts about their reliability as Christian teachers about creation and evolution. Even if some of what they say is true, their presentation still brings to mind your story of the pastor in whose church 30% of the prophecies came true. The cause of Jesus Christ is not helped by poor scholarship and incorrect statements. In Christ, Carl Drews References (1) The Tasaday Tribe. http://lime.weeg.uiowa.edu/~anthro/webcourse/lost/Tasaday/Tasaday.htm http://www.sil.org/sil/roster/headland-t/tasaday.htm http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/12651.html http://jamesjr.tripod.com/index-3.html http://osu.orst.edu/instruct/anth210/tasaday.html The tribe is real, but the "Stone Age" part was a deliberate hoax. The original publicity was in 1971, and the hoax was exposed in 1986 by Swiss anthropologist and journalist Oswald Iten. Elizalde died in poverty and addicted to drugs in Costa Rica in May 1997. (2) The Human Appendix. http://www.sciam.com/askexpert/medicine/medicine8.html Author: Loren G. Martin, professor of physiology at Oklahoma State University. http://www.encyclopedia.com/ still has the old information; I sent them an e-mail. (3) Polystrate Fossils. John William Dawson (1868) described a classic Carboniferous-age locality at Joggins, Nova Scotia, and provided a reasonable explanation for its formation: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html Coal deposits were formed from ancient swamps, and the trees grew there. The trees kept growing as the level of the swamp slowly rose through accumulation of sediment and organic matter. The point of citing such an old reference is to emphasize how long these fossils have been known and understood. (4) Ancient Buried Trees at Neskowin Beach. A forest was submerged during an earthquake 2,000 years ago. Now unearthed by storm erosion. Visible at Neskowin Beach (reported by Brian T. Meehan in The Oregonian, March 7, 1998). This beach is north of Cascade Head. Also, "This winter, erosion exposed 4,000-year-old stumps at Beverly Beach State Park, north of Newport." http://www.oregonlive.com/todaysnews/9803/st03073.html Another news story by Lynda V. Mapes in the Seattle Times, Posted Monday, May 11, 1998: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/health-science/html98/altstum_051198.html Pilgrims descended on the beach by the thousands in Neskowin after news reports described stumps "dating back to the time of Jesus." A flyer pasted on a motel-office door notes: "As a matter of general interest, the stumps are visible most years." Geologists theorize that a subduction earthquake lowered the coastline suddenly and shoreline erosion buried the trees. These fossils are being formed now without the aid of a global flood. A catastrophic event (an earthquake) certainly helps to form fossils, but a worldwide flood is not necessary to explain the Neskowin trees. Tree stumps can take thousands of years to get fully buried. "Episodically Buried Forests in the Oregon Surf Zone", a scientific paper by Roger Hart and Curt Peterson. http://www.netbridge.net/~rogerhart/dogami.html (5) Chicxulub Crater and the Dinosaur Extinction Article by Virgil L. Sharpton in Earth in Space Vol. 8, No. 4, December 1995, p. 7. http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/sharpton.html Scientists theorized in 1980 that a large meteorite had struck the earth 65 million years ago and caused extinction of the dinosaurs. A worldwide layer of iridium pointed to a meteorite impact, but they could not find the crater. The Chicxulub structure was discovered in the 1950s by the Pemex oil company, but it was not until 1990 that most scientists connected it with an impact catastrophe at the Cretaceous - Tertiary (K-T) geological boundary. A minority view says that Chicxulub is volcanic in origin. Time Magazine article "A Double Whammy?" from January 9, 1995 Volume 145, No. 2 by Leon Jaroff: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950109/950109.science.html After the Chicxulub comet hit, a second jolt from volcanoes (caused by the impact) may have helped send the dinosaurs to their doom. Luis Alvarez proposed the 1980 theory. (6) Stephen Jay Gould and Evolution through Punctuated Equilibrium http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/05258.html Punctuated Equilibrium (1972) does not require large-scale mutations. It is distinct from Goldschmidt's earlier theory, although they have some common features (e.g., relatively fast evolution): http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html See also Richard Goldschmidt [1878-1958] Geneticist. Noted for his book, "The Material Basis of Evolution" (1940), where he advances a hypothesis of macroevolution via systemic or macro- mutations. I do not know the origin of the "Hopeful Monster" term. http://www.bartleby.com/65/go/GoldschmR.html ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 08-Dec-00 15:20:38 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net Closed mind? Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? Truth. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do >not bother responding at all.<< > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears and >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the >condition start to set in when he converted? > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:20:37 1900 Received: from hotmail.com (f118.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.118]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:20:27 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:20:25 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:20:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:20:25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2000 23:20:25.0659 (UTC) FILETIME=[71E5D0B0:01C0616D] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 15:23:09 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: editor@liberator.net Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (rly-xd02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.167]) by air-xd05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:23:09 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f72.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.72]) by rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:22:46 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:22:45 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:22:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:22:45 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2000 23:22:45.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[C557A980:01C0616D] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 15:27:39 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: editor@liberator.net By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate crime. What is Gloria Allred's and Johnny Cochrane's phone number? Celebrate diversity! Don't hate! Peas, Bill >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:05:34 EST > >So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some >information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. > >Excellent. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (rly-ye01.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.198]) by air-ye02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:27:39 1900 Received: from hotmail.com (f35.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.35]) by rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:27:20 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:27:20 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:27:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:27:19 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2000 23:27:20.0023 (UTC) FILETIME=[68E0BE70:01C0616E] ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 08-Dec-00 15:29:35 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Right on Bill! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Closed mind? Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? Truth. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do >not bother responding at all.<< > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears and >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the >condition start to set in when he converted? > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Right on Bill!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com
Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods.
Closed mind? Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? Truth. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com> >CC: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <DWise1@aol.com> >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please do >not bother responding at all.<< > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears and >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can.  He wants to witness to us >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him.  Or did the >condition start to set in when he converted? > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:29:34 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:29:16 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00403; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:29:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ec01c0616d$e53bb980$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , References: Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E9_01C0612A.D6476DE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 15:29:46 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! God Bless! Bill As for the monkeys well..... next ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! 
God Bless!
Bill
 
As for the monkeys well.....
next
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net> >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar.  I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill.  With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience.  It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all.  Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:29:46 1900 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:29:01 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00138; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:28:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00e301c0616d$db723b40$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E0_01C0612A.CC31A460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 08-Dec-00 15:35:45 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. Delusion is no solution. Requests I made for dinner: 43 Accepted: 0 % for the skuptics: 0% >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > >Right on Bill! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > Closed mind? > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > > Truth. > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please >do > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears >and > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (rly-xb02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.103]) by air-xb01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:35:45 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f127.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.127]) by rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:35:31 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:35:30 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:35:30 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:35:30 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2000 23:35:30.0875 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D72D0B0:01C0616F] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 15:50:12 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Bequette, you wrote: "Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! "As for the monkeys well....." Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. = ) Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bequette To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! God Bless! Bill As for the monkeys well..... next ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Bill Bequette, you wrote:
 
"Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives!
 
"As for the monkeys well....."
 
Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with chimps.  Simians are our evolutionary cousins.
 
= )
 
Mark
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bequette
To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! 
God Bless!
Bill
 
As for the monkeys well.....
next
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net> >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar.  I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill.  With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience.  It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all.  Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:50:12 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:49:27 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eB8NmZI98623; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:48:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <001b01c06171$b6368940$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <00e301c0616d$db723b40$ab20113f@com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:50:55 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C0613F.69FA0200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 15:59:20 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: spambuster@gigagod.com, billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill, not to pick on my buddy Mark, but remember when I asked him the simple biology question about Mutations and his term "negative inherited traits?" Bill, if he is talking about hte entire genome he is fatally flawed because the chimp genome has hardly been sequenced. However, there are parts of the the AMINO ACID (PROTEIN) sequence of cytochrome C that is very similar, perhaps 99%. however many other proteind are significantly different. I hope Mark learns from this important lesson and does not throw out erroneous Biology in order to try to win an argument instead of sharing truth. >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:50:55 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > >"As for the monkeys well....." > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > >= ) > > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Bequette > To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > God Bless! > Bill > > As for the monkeys well..... > next > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Oh a Wise Guy! > > nyuk nyuk > > And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: , > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might >like to > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the >Irvine > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the >Costa > >Mesa > >store should have them too. > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give >it to > >the > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has >demonstrated > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I >also > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his >mind, > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything >would > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with >"Next!". > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa05.mx.aol.com (rly-xa05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.74]) by air-xa01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:59:20 1900 Received: from hotmail.com (f174.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.174]) by rly-xa05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 18:58:57 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:58:57 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:58:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: spambuster@gigagod.com, billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:58:48 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2000 23:58:57.0197 (UTC) FILETIME=[D3AE85D0:01C06172] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 16:25:11 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark To: Bill Bequette ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Bill Bequette, you wrote: "Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! "As for the monkeys well....." Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. = ) Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bequette To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! God Bless! Bill As for the monkeys well..... next ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Bill and I are not related to the chimps.  If you choose to be related to chimps that is your business!  Monkey Man!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
To: Bill Bequette ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Bill Bequette, you wrote:
 
"Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives!
 
"As for the monkeys well....."
 
Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with chimps.  Simians are our evolutionary cousins.
 
= )
 
Mark
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Bequette
To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! 
God Bless!
Bill
 
As for the monkeys well.....
next
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net> >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar.  I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill.  With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience.  It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all.  Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:25:11 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:24:34 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07299; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:24:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <010301c06175$9dab6fe0$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Mark" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <00e301c0616d$db723b40$ab20113f@com> <001b01c06171$b6368940$052a03c7@liber8r> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:18:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0100_01C06132.8E940BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 08-Dec-00 16:26:14 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. Delusion is no solution. Requests I made for dinner: 43 Accepted: 0 % for the skuptics: 0% >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > >Right on Bill! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > Closed mind? > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > > Truth. > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please >do > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears >and > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
I think why can't we all just get along?  The reason is that men who are Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods.
Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's dinner.  Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. Delusion is no solution. Requests I made for dinner:  43 Accepted: 0 % for the skuptics:  0% >From: "Bill Bequette" <billbeq@mediaone.net> >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com>,        ><spambuster@gigagod.com> >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > >Right on Bill! >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: Bill Morgan >   To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com >   Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net >   Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM >   Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >   Closed mind? > >   Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > >   Truth. > > >   >From: DWise1@aol.com >   >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com> >   >CC: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <DWise1@aol.com> >   >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >   >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST >   > >   > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please >do >   >not bother responding at all.<< >   > >   >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears >and >   >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can.  He wants to witness to us >   >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly >   >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any >   >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. >   > >   >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him.  Or did the >   >condition start to set in when he converted? >   > > >   >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >   Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:26:14 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:25:40 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08540; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:25:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <010c01c06175$c4fc2260$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , References: Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:19:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0109_01C06132.B60F77E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 16:26:56 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net HAte crime!!! AHHH I AM a victim!! I will call Gore and Jesse Jackson to come rescue me from you meanies!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate crime. What is Gloria Allred's and Johnny Cochrane's phone number? Celebrate diversity! Don't hate! Peas, Bill >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:05:34 EST > >So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some >information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. > >Excellent. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
HAte crime!!! AHHH I AM a victim!!  I will call Gore and Jesse Jackson to come rescue me from you meanies!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate crime.  What is Gloria Allred's and Johnny Cochrane's phone number? Celebrate diversity!  Don't hate! Peas, Bill >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billbeq@mediaone.net> >CC: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:05:34 EST > >So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some >information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. > >Excellent. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (rly-yd04.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.4]) by air-yd04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:26:56 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:26:19 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09283; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:26:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <011501c06175$dd154340$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:20:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0112_01C06132.CE3039E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 16:39:22 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), spambuster@gigagod.com, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Jesus forgives all of us! God bless America and George W. Bush!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:58 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Bill, not to pick on my buddy Mark, but remember when I asked him the simple biology question about Mutations and his term "negative inherited traits?" Bill, if he is talking about hte entire genome he is fatally flawed because the chimp genome has hardly been sequenced. However, there are parts of the the AMINO ACID (PROTEIN) sequence of cytochrome C that is very similar, perhaps 99%. however many other proteind are significantly different. I hope Mark learns from this important lesson and does not throw out erroneous Biology in order to try to win an argument instead of sharing truth. >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:50:55 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > >"As for the monkeys well....." > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > >= ) > > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Bequette > To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > God Bless! > Bill > > As for the monkeys well..... > next > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Oh a Wise Guy! > > nyuk nyuk > > And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: , > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might >like to > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the >Irvine > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the >Costa > >Mesa > >store should have them too. > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give >it to > >the > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has >demonstrated > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I >also > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his >mind, > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything >would > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with >"Next!". > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Jesus forgives all of us!  God bless America and George W. Bush!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
Bill, not to pick on my buddy Mark, but remember when I asked him the simple biology question about Mutations and his term "negative inherited traits?" Bill, if he is talking about hte entire genome he is fatally flawed because the chimp genome has hardly been sequenced.  However, there are parts of the the AMINO ACID (PROTEIN) sequence of cytochrome C that is very similar, perhaps 99%.  however many other proteind are significantly different. I hope Mark learns from this important lesson and does not throw out erroneous Biology in order to try to win an argument instead of sharing truth. >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com> >To: "Bill Bequette" <billbeq@mediaone.net>,   "Bill Morgan" ><billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com> >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:50:55 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > >"As for the monkeys well....." > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with >chimps.  Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > >= ) > > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- >   From: Bill Bequette >   To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com >   Cc: editor@liberator.net >   Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM >   Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >   Hey Bill have a great weekend.  I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday.  We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! >   God Bless! >   Bill > >   As for the monkeys well..... >   next >     ----- Original Message ----- >     From: Bill Morgan >     To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net >     Cc: editor@liberator.net >     Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM >     Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >     Oh a Wise Guy! > >     nyuk nyuk > >     And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > >     >From: DWise1@aol.com >     >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net> >     >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >     >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >     >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST >     > >     >How about that, a double-Billing. >     > >     >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might >like to >     >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar.  I saw them at the >Irvine >     >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the >Costa >     >Mesa >     >store should have them too. >     > >     >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give >it to >     >the >     >other Bill.  With the over-active imagination that Bill M has >demonstrated >     >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I >also >     >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his >mind, >     >or at least rewrite history to his convenience.  It might prove more >     >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all.  Anything >would >     >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with >"Next!". >     > > >     >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >     Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:39:22 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:38:48 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22359; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:38:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <012701c06177$9998bbe0$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:33:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0124_01C06134.8AAD9800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 08-Dec-00 17:00:26 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net God Bless you Bill! I forgave the evil monkey brothers a long time ago! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate crime. What is Gloria Allred's and Johnny Cochrane's phone number? Celebrate diversity! Don't hate! Peas, Bill >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:05:34 EST > >So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some >information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. > >Excellent. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
God Bless you Bill!  I forgave the evil monkey brothers a long time ago!  
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate crime.  What is Gloria Allred's and Johnny Cochrane's phone number? Celebrate diversity!  Don't hate! Peas, Bill >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billbeq@mediaone.net> >CC: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 15:05:34 EST > >So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has deprived himself of some >information that he would have found personally helpful and even enjoyable. > >Excellent. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 20:00:26 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Dec 2000 19:59:53 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust130.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.130]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12985; Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:59:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <012b01c0617a$88e83e80$ab20113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:53:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0128_01C06137.769BEE40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 09-Dec-00 13:46:51 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Bequette, you wrote: "Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!!" I hate to break it to you guys but we are related to all things living and non-living. The carbon in our bodies is the result of long dead stars. Protons, neutrons and electrons -- bundled energy -- make up everything. We are related to everything. You can learn a lot if you widen your perspective. Try picking up a book other than The Bible. You might learn something. = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bequette To: Mark ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 6:18 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark To: Bill Bequette ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 3:50 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Bill Bequette, you wrote: "Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! "As for the monkeys well....." Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. = ) Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bequette To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our Lord to have such great lives! God Bless! Bill As for the monkeys well..... next ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Oh a Wise Guy! nyuk nyuk And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: , >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > >How about that, a double-Billing. > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like to >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the Irvine >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa >Mesa >store should have them too. > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to >the >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has demonstrated >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his mind, >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything would >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (rly-xd05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.170]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:46:51 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-xd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:46:40 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eB9LkAf23419; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:46:10 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <002801c06229$c6859bc0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <00e301c0616d$db723b40$ab20113f@com> <001b01c06171$b6368940$052a03c7@liber8r> <010301c06175$9dab6fe0$ab20113f@com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:48:31 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 09-Dec-00 13:49:36 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com Bill Bequette, you wrote: "I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may not have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. = ) It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think. It's no wonder why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a block of carbon. = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. Delusion is no solution. Requests I made for dinner: 43 Accepted: 0 % for the skuptics: 0% >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > >Right on Bill! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > Closed mind? > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > > Truth. > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, please >do > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears >and > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to us > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds firmly > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to any > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa01.mx.aol.com (rly-xa01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.70]) by air-xa01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:49:36 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-xa01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:49:18 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eB9LnBf23732; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:49:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <003201c0622a$328688c0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , References: <010c01c06175$c4fc2260$ab20113f@com> Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 09-Dec-00 13:52:55 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Bequette, you wrote: "Jesus forgives all of us! God bless America..." How can a dead human bless anyone? Why would the mythological son of God want to bless anyone? What was Jesus' last words? Answer: As spikes were being driven into his flesh he most likely yelled, "Ahhhhhhh......" = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:58 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Bill, not to pick on my buddy Mark, but remember when I asked him the simple biology question about Mutations and his term "negative inherited traits?" Bill, if he is talking about hte entire genome he is fatally flawed because the chimp genome has hardly been sequenced. However, there are parts of the the AMINO ACID (PROTEIN) sequence of cytochrome C that is very similar, perhaps 99%. however many other proteind are significantly different. I hope Mark learns from this important lesson and does not throw out erroneous Biology in order to try to win an argument instead of sharing truth. >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:50:55 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > >"As for the monkeys well....." > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > >= ) > > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Bequette > To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > God Bless! > Bill > > As for the monkeys well..... > next > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Oh a Wise Guy! > > nyuk nyuk > > And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: , > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might >like to > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the >Irvine > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the >Costa > >Mesa > >store should have them too. > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give >it to > >the > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has >demonstrated > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I >also > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his >mind, > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything >would > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with >"Next!". > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:52:55 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:52:32 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eB9LqBf23920; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:52:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <003c01c0622a$9e3cb120$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <012701c06177$9998bbe0$ab20113f@com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:54:33 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/09/2000 13:52:55 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Bequette, you wrote: "Jesus forgives all of us! God bless America..." How can a dead human bless anyone? Why would the mythological son of God want to bless anyone? What was Jesus' last words? Answer: As spikes were being driven into his flesh he most likely yelled, "Ahhhhhhh......" = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:58 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Bill, not to pick on my buddy Mark, but remember when I asked him the simple biology question about Mutations and his term "negative inherited traits?" Bill, if he is talking about hte entire genome he is fatally flawed because the chimp genome has hardly been sequenced. However, there are parts of the the AMINO ACID (PROTEIN) sequence of cytochrome C that is very similar, perhaps 99%. however many other proteind are significantly different. I hope Mark learns from this important lesson and does not throw out erroneous Biology in order to try to win an argument instead of sharing truth. >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 17:50:55 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > >"As for the monkeys well....." > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > >= ) > > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Bequette > To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > God Bless! > Bill > > As for the monkeys well..... > next > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > Oh a Wise Guy! > > nyuk nyuk > > And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: , > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might >like to > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the >Irvine > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the >Costa > >Mesa > >store should have them too. > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give >it to > >the > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has >demonstrated > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I >also > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his >mind, > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything >would > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with >"Next!". > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (rly-zb04.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.4]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:52:55 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-zb04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:52:32 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eB9LqBf23920; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:52:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <003c01c0622a$9e3cb120$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <012701c06177$9998bbe0$ab20113f@com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:54:33 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 09-Dec-00 15:04:52 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate crime. << Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! "So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say is that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on putting on your "idiot act". Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/09/2000 19:42:11 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net , you wrote: "Did I call Bill B a 'Christian Jerk'? No, I did not! What I did say is that he is putting on a 'Christian Jerk act'. Like you insist on putting on your 'idiot act'. Shall I add your 'I hereby charge you with a hate crime' statement to the growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen?" Why would he want to start listening now? Currently he allows his imagination to contribute to a belief in unsupported religious events. = ) Mark E-Mail: news@liberator.net Better Business: http://liberator.net/special/betterbusiness.html CompuServe Report: http://liberator.net/articles/LiberatorMark/CompuServe.html Stop the insanity, drop CompuServe and go with a local ISP. Visit CNET: http://webisplist.internetlist.com/ ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa02.mx.aol.com (rly-xa02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.71]) by air-xa01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 22:42:11 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-xa02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Sat, 09 Dec 2000 22:41:58 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBA3ftD55051; Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:41:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <009701c0625b$79d01580$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: , Cc: , , References: <20.f044057.27641494@aol.com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 21:44:16 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/10/2000 21:03:25 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: spambuster@gigagod.com, billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill, this is the guy who did not even know what a mutation was! Some Biology expert! But Bill, in america everyone has a right to lie to themself, your job is to not believe thier lie. Fusion requires energy input. Stars make heavy elements by fusion. The atheists deny this simple fact. Peas, Bill >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:48:31 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to >chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!!" > >I hate to break it to you guys but we are related to all things living and >non-living. The carbon in our bodies is the result of long dead stars. >Protons, neutrons and electrons -- bundled energy -- make up everything. >We >are related to everything. > >You can learn a lot if you widen your perspective. > >Try picking up a book other than The Bible. You might learn something. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Bequette >To: Mark ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com >Cc: editor@liberator.net >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 6:18 PM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to >chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!! >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mark >To: Bill Bequette ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com >Cc: editor@liberator.net >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 3:50 PM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by >our Lord to have such great lives! > >"As for the monkeys well....." > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > >= ) > > >Mark > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Bequette >To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com >Cc: editor@liberator.net >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and >your >wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our >Lord to have such great lives! >God Bless! >Bill > >As for the monkeys well..... >next >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Morgan >To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net >Cc: editor@liberator.net >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Oh a Wise Guy! > >nyuk nyuk > >And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: , > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like >to > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the >Irvine > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa > >Mesa > >store should have them too. > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to > >the > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has >demonstrated > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his >mind, > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything >would > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd01.mx.aol.com (rly-xd01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.166]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:03:25 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f215.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.215]) by rly-xd01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:03:02 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:03:02 -0800 Received: from 205.188.197.43 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:03:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.43] From: "Bill Morgan" To: spambuster@gigagod.com, billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:03:02 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2000 05:03:02.0403 (UTC) FILETIME=[A37F8530:01C0632F] ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/10/2000 21:05:55 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: spambuster@gigagod.com, billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Bill, don't let him get to you, he is learninga little biology now he thinks he is dangerous! :) All life on earth is carbon based (some think there is silicon based life but that has not yet been found. Notice that his only argument is to call you a name. That is 2nd maybe 3rd grade level of arguement...stay above that Bill. Freedom, Bill >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > >"I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" > >If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may not >have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. > >= ) > >It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think. It's no >wonder >why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a >block >of carbon. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bill Morgan >To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's >dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but >why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > >It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an >evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter >attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > >Delusion is no solution. > >Requests I made for dinner: 43 >Accepted: 0 > >% for the skuptics: 0% > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" > >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > >Right on Bill! > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bill Morgan > > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > Closed mind? > > > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > > > > Truth. > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: > > >CC: , , > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, >please > >do > > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears > >and > > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to >us > > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds >firmly > > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to >any > > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the > > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >__________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (rly-ye05.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.202]) by air-ye01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:05:55 1900 Received: from hotmail.com (f21.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.21]) by rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:05:36 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:05:35 -0800 Received: from 205.188.197.43 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:05:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.43] From: "Bill Morgan" To: spambuster@gigagod.com, billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:05:35 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2000 05:05:35.0912 (UTC) FILETIME=[FEFF2280:01C0632F] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/10/2000 21:08:30 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate >crime. << > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say is >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on putting >on your "idiot act". > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:08:30 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f222.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.222]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:08:17 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:08:16 -0800 Received: from 205.188.197.43 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:08:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.43] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:08:16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2000 05:08:16.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EA02EF0:01C06330] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/10/2000 21:15:10 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Why can't we all just get along? Peace, love and brotherly goodwill to all! To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ is so near! Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us! Dave Wise I love you! I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will accept Christ as your savior!!! GOD IS AWESOME!!!! Love, Bill B. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: Cc: ; Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! > > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate > >crime. << > > > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > > > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > > > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say is > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on putting > >on your "idiot act". > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:15:10 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:14:40 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12880; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:14:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002f01c06333$67e64500$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:29:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/10/2000 21:18:40 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), spambuster@gigagod.com, DWise1@aol.com Oh no he never has done more than clutter my inbox :) Actually most the time I just have my software filter out his messages and delete them or send him automatically generated replies of "next". Once in awhile though if I am bored and I mean really bored I reply. Toying with people who are so sensitive is probably a sin and I am definitely a sinner. Oh well I am so badddd! Bye all and JESUS LIVES!!!! :) Meeeeeeooooow ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:05 AM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > Bill, don't let him get to you, he is learninga little biology now he thinks > he is dangerous! :) > > All life on earth is carbon based (some think there is silicon based life > but that has not yet been found. > > Notice that his only argument is to call you a name. That is 2nd maybe 3rd > grade level of arguement...stay above that Bill. > > Freedom, > Bill > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" > >, > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > >"I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are > >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" > > > >If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may not > >have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. > > > >= ) > > > >It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think. It's no > >wonder > >why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a > >block > >of carbon. > > > >= ) > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > >Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's > >dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but > >why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > > > >It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an > >evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter > >attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > > > >Delusion is no solution. > > > >Requests I made for dinner: 43 > >Accepted: 0 > > > >% for the skuptics: 0% > > > > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" > > >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > > > >Right on Bill! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Bill Morgan > > > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > > Closed mind? > > > > > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > > >To: > > > >CC: , , > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, > >please > > >do > > > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > > > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears > > >and > > > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to > >us > > > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds > >firmly > > > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to > >any > > > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > > > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the > > > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > >__________ > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ > >_________ > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:18:40 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:18:16 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17133; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:18:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003701c06333$e50eacc0$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , References: Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:33:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/10/2000 21:19:23 Pacific Standard Time From: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), spambuster@gigagod.com, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Well I have studied enough biology to know that God designed all living things and nothing is by chance except maybe the current election! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: ; ; Cc: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:03 AM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > Bill, this is the guy who did not even know what a mutation was! > > Some Biology expert! > > But Bill, in america everyone has a right to lie to themself, your job is to > not believe thier lie. Fusion requires energy input. Stars make heavy > elements by fusion. The atheists deny this simple fact. > > Peas, > Bill > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" > >, > >CC: > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:48:31 -0600 > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > >"Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to > >chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!!" > > > >I hate to break it to you guys but we are related to all things living and > >non-living. The carbon in our bodies is the result of long dead stars. > >Protons, neutrons and electrons -- bundled energy -- make up everything. > >We > >are related to everything. > > > >You can learn a lot if you widen your perspective. > > > >Try picking up a book other than The Bible. You might learn something. > > > >= ) > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Bequette > >To: Mark ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 6:18 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to > >chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!! > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Mark > >To: Bill Bequette ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 3:50 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and > >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by > >our Lord to have such great lives! > > > >"As for the monkeys well....." > > > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with > >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > > > >= ) > > > > > >Mark > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Bequette > >To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and > >your > >wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our > >Lord to have such great lives! > >God Bless! > >Bill > > > >As for the monkeys well..... > >next > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Oh a Wise Guy! > > > >nyuk nyuk > > > >And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: , > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like > >to > > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the > >Irvine > > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa > > >Mesa > > >store should have them too. > > > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to > > >the > > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has > >demonstrated > > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also > > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his > >mind, > > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything > >would > > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ > >_________ > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (rly-xb02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.103]) by air-xb01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:19:23 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:19:19 -0500 Received: from bb (we-24-130-112-49.we.mediaone.net [24.130.112.49]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18413; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:19:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003d01c06334$0b6cc1e0$31708218@we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:34:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/10/2000 21:40:23 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: BillBeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill, you are an encouragement, a light in a very dark world! >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:29:54 -0800 > >Why can't we all just get along? >Peace, love and brotherly goodwill to all! >To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ >is >so near! Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us! Dave >Wise I love you! I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will >accept Christ as your savior!!! GOD IS AWESOME!!!! >Love, > Bill B. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: >Cc: ; >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! > > > > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >Licensed > > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: > > >CC: , , > > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > > > > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate > > >crime. << > > > > > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > > > > > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > > > > > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say >is > > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on >putting > > >on your "idiot act". > > > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the > > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:40:22 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f188.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.188]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:39:53 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:39:52 -0800 Received: from 205.188.197.43 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:39:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.43] From: "Bill Morgan" To: BillBeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:39:52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2000 05:39:52.0465 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8CC3810:01C06334] ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/10/2000 21:43:02 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Bill, we won the volleyball championship (again). i was teh setter, and in the ourth game had three great stuff blocks that turned a 7-0 deficit into an eventual win! >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:19:59 -0800 > >I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice >Denny's > dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, >but > why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > > It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an > evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to >counter > attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > > Delusion is no solution. > > Requests I made for dinner: 43 > Accepted: 0 > > % for the skuptics: 0% > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" > >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > >Right on Bill! > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bill Morgan > > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > Closed mind? > > > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who >won't? > > > > Truth. > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: > > >CC: , , > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, >please > >do > > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both >ears > >and > > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness >to us > > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds >firmly > > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to >any > > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did >the > > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (rly-yb04.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.4]) by air-yb01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:43:02 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f65.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.65]) by rly-yb04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:42:52 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:42:49 -0800 Received: from 205.188.197.43 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:42:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.43] From: "Bill Morgan" To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:42:48 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2000 05:42:49.0145 (UTC) FILETIME=[321B7290:01C06335] ################################################ Subj: 43 Date: 12/10/2000 21:47:09 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net For the 43rd time, lets meet at Dennys and resolve all this tangled web. Why won't you work to repair what was once a great friendship? >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: G W Bush; interesting reading >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:30:27 EST > >> >Testimony of George W. Bush - in his own words> > >The founder of a national WEB devotional site said he called Gore and > >Bush and asked them to send in their testimonies for the web site-since > >they BOTH "claim" to be Christians.> > >Gore's office said that he didn't have one in typed form-but Bush did. > >Here it is . . . please pass this along! > >Very Important!!! This could change America. (Whether Democrat or > >Republican).> > >If any of you are interested in what George Bush says about his faith, > >here it is.>> > >From George Bush:> >[clipped -- if you guys want to read the original in its entirety, then >just ask me and I will forward it to you] ><< > >Bill M, whatever relevance is THAT supposed to have? Instead of sending >junk email, you need to attend to the serious business at hand, like >helping us resolve the acrimonious mess that YOU have created by slandering >me and that you are perpetuating by obstinantly blocking our . > >Log this as the FORTY-SECOND time that I have had to remind you that you >need to tell us what you imagine that I had written that motivated you to >make your false accusations against me. We need enough details to be able >to identify the messages in question; simply repeating the accusations yet >again will not suffice. > > >Besides, Bill M, if you are going to forward something, you should at least >read it first. Bush decries the decline of personal responsibility. A >large part of the conflict between us is that you act as if you think that >you can do whatever you want and not have to accept personal responsibility >for your actions. It is sad to see that your fundamentalist Christian >situational ethics has sunk so low. > >Bill Morgan, you have definitely done wrong. You need to take >responsibility for your actions and help us resolve this matter. > >PS >Of course Bush had a prepared statement of faith in typed form ready for >his Religious Right constituency. He's the highest-ranking stealth >candidate that they've had so far. > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:47:09 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f146.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.146]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:46:51 1900 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:46:49 -0800 Received: from 205.188.197.43 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:46:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [205.188.197.43] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net Subject: 43 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 05:46:49 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2000 05:46:49.0566 (UTC) FILETIME=[C168C7E0:01C06335] ################################################ Subj: Re: 43 Date: 12/10/2000 22:54:01 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Because he enjoys the arguments more than working things out. Hey a lot of people are like that. Bill don't waste your time. Just add him to your filter where his email goes in the trash! :) -----Original Message----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:47 PM Subject: 43 >For the 43rd time, lets meet at Dennys and resolve all this tangled web. >Why won't you work to repair what was once a great friendship? > > >>From: DWise1@aol.com >>To: >>CC: , , >>Subject: Re: G W Bush; interesting reading >>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:30:27 EST >> >>> >>Testimony of George W. Bush - in his own words> >> >The founder of a national WEB devotional site said he called Gore and >> >Bush and asked them to send in their testimonies for the web site-since >> >they BOTH "claim" to be Christians.> >> >Gore's office said that he didn't have one in typed form-but Bush did. >> >Here it is . . . please pass this along! >> >Very Important!!! This could change America. (Whether Democrat or >> >Republican).> >> >If any of you are interested in what George Bush says about his faith, >> >here it is.>> >> >From George Bush:> >>[clipped -- if you guys want to read the original in its entirety, then >>just ask me and I will forward it to you] >><< >> >>Bill M, whatever relevance is THAT supposed to have? Instead of sending >>junk email, you need to attend to the serious business at hand, like >>helping us resolve the acrimonious mess that YOU have created by slandering >>me and that you are perpetuating by obstinantly blocking our . >> >>Log this as the FORTY-SECOND time that I have had to remind you that you >>need to tell us what you imagine that I had written that motivated you to >>make your false accusations against me. We need enough details to be able >>to identify the messages in question; simply repeating the accusations yet >>again will not suffice. >> >> >>Besides, Bill M, if you are going to forward something, you should at least >>read it first. Bush decries the decline of personal responsibility. A >>large part of the conflict between us is that you act as if you think that >>you can do whatever you want and not have to accept personal responsibility >>for your actions. It is sad to see that your fundamentalist Christian >>situational ethics has sunk so low. >> >>Bill Morgan, you have definitely done wrong. You need to take >>responsibility for your actions and help us resolve this matter. >> >>PS >>Of course Bush had a prepared statement of faith in typed form ready for >>his Religious Right constituency. He's the highest-ranking stealth >>candidate that they've had so far. >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za05.mx.aol.com (rly-za05.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.101]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:54:01 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-za05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:53:46 -0500 Received: from wb (we-24-130-113-13.we.mediaone.net [24.130.113.13]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10952; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:53:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001401c0633f$76067cc0$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: Subject: Re: 43 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:56:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 ################################################ Subj: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: 12/10/2000 22:55:19 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com, spambuster@gigagod.com Wow! That is awesome. VB is the best. I like the action and the great plays occasionally. Beats sitting on the couch. Another great example of why we are blessed! Bill -----Original Message----- From: Bill Morgan To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:43 PM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >Bill, >we won the volleyball championship (again). > >i was teh setter, and in the ourth game had three great stuff blocks that >turned a 7-0 deficit into an eventual win! > > >>From: "Bill Bequette" >>To: "Bill Morgan" , , >> >>Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >>Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 16:19:59 -0800 >> >>I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are >>Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens! >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Bill Morgan >> To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com >> Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM >> Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >> >> >> Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice >>Denny's >> dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, >>but >> why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? >> >> It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an >> evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to >>counter >> attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. >> >> Delusion is no solution. >> >> Requests I made for dinner: 43 >> Accepted: 0 >> >> % for the skuptics: 0% >> >> >> >From: "Bill Bequette" >> >To: "Bill Morgan" , , >> > >> >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >> >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 >> > >> >Right on Bill! >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Bill Morgan >> > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com >> > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net >> > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM >> > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >> > >> > >> > Closed mind? >> > >> > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who >>won't? >> > >> > Truth. >> > >> > >> > >From: DWise1@aol.com >> > >To: >> > >CC: , , >> >> > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. >> > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST >> > > >> > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, >>please >> >do >> > >not bother responding at all.<< >> > > >> > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both >>ears >> >and >> > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness >>to us >> > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds >>firmly >> > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to >>any >> > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. >> > > >> > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did >>the >> > >condition start to set in when he converted? >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >> >http://explorer.msn.com >> > >> >> >>__________________________________________________________________________ ___________ >> Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >>http://explorer.msn.com >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (rly-ye03.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.200]) by air-ye03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:55:19 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-ye03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:54:57 -0500 Received: from wb (we-24-130-113-13.we.mediaone.net [24.130.113.13]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11811; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:54:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001901c0633f$a0075b20$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:57:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/10/2000 22:56:03 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Thanks but I deserve nothing only the Lord is my hero! -----Original Message----- From: Bill Morgan To: BillBeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Bill, you are an encouragement, a light in a very dark world! > > >>From: "Bill Bequette" >>To: "Bill Morgan" , >>CC: >>Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >>Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:29:54 -0800 >> >>Why can't we all just get along? >>Peace, love and brotherly goodwill to all! >>To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ >>is >>so near! Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us! Dave >>Wise I love you! I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will >>accept Christ as your savior!!! GOD IS AWESOME!!!! >>Love, >> Bill B. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Bill Morgan" >>To: >>Cc: ; >>Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM >>Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >> >> >> > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! >> > >> > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >>Licensed >> > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? >> > >> > >> > >From: DWise1@aol.com >> > >To: >> > >CC: , , >> > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >> > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST >> > > >> > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate >> > >crime. << >> > > >> > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! >> > > >> > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " >> > > >> > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say >>is >> > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on >>putting >> > >on your "idiot act". >> > > >> > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >>the >> > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False >> > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? >> > > >> > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >>__________________________________________________________________________ __ >>_________ >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >>http://explorer.msn.com >> > >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (rly-xb02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.103]) by air-xb04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:56:03 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-xb02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:55:39 -0500 Received: from wb (we-24-130-113-13.we.mediaone.net [24.130.113.13]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12416; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:55:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001e01c0633f$b9332480$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:58:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/11/2000 07:41:46 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > >>Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< And for what reason should I not? You did make a serious accusation against me there. It had no factual basis in reality. Please explain why I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had distorted the meaning of what I had written. >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that claim was made. ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/11/2000 07:41:48 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > >>Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< And for what reason should I not? You did make a serious accusation against me there. It had no factual basis in reality. Please explain why I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had distorted the meaning of what I had written. >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that claim was made. ################################################ Subj: Re: 43 Date: 12/11/2000 15:19:27 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: editor@liberator.net Dave, I think you really have to much time on your hands. Are you married or have a girl friend? I bet not. If you do I bet you don't have kids! :) If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) Later, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Re: 43 >>Because he enjoys the arguments more than working things out. Hey a lot of people are like that. Bill don't waste your time. Just add him to your filter where his email goes in the trash! :)<< Bill B, I really do want to work this out. It is Bill Morgan who has consistently and persistently blocked any possibility of resolution in this matter. Anybody looking at the facts would plainly see that. The record clearly shows what had happened. --------------------
Dave,
I think you really have to much time on your hands.  Are you married or have a girl friend?  I bet not.  If you do I bet you don't have kids! :)  If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :)
Later, Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: DWise1@aol.com
To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; billyjack1@hotmail.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: 43
>>Because he enjoys the arguments more than working things out.  Hey a lot of people are like that.  Bill don't waste your time.  Just add him to your filter where his email goes in the trash! :)<< Bill B, I really do want to work this out.  It is Bill Morgan who has consistently and persistently blocked any possibility of resolution in this matter.  Anybody looking at the facts would plainly see that.  The record clearly shows what had happened.
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (rly-xa03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.72]) by air-xa03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:19:27 -0500 Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by rly-xa03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 18:18:47 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust34.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.34]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10014; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:18:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002201c063c8$4cd1c9c0$2220113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: References: Subject: Re: 43 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 15:15:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01C06385.3DEE4700" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: 12/11/2000 17:17:15 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net Sorry, Bill Morgan, but we cannot have any private conversations here. You have taught me well; I simply cannot not trust you without witnesses present. For that matter, we have found that I also cannot trust you WITH witnesses present. I certain don't have anything to hide. Do you? At any rate, we mustn't leave the others out of the loop. Here is the email that Bill M had sent me. My responses to it will be in separate messages. --------------------- Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 9:42:01 AM Eastern Standard Time From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Thank you very much for the e amil and I agree the burden of proof is on me to find a specific example of a polystrate fossil if I am making the claim they exist! If it is a phoney claim, not only won't I state they exist, I will correct other Creation people not to claim they exist. If you would meet me face to face, you could hear of the numerous times I correct creation people on false claims (Darwin converting on his death bed...not true, the dust on the moon something I do not use). Regarding our meeting, I do not understand why you say I have never responded to "being insulted." I think you are smart enough to remember how I responded. I feel insulted that you keep bringing it up. For the last time, when I invited you and your wife to dinner with my wife and I, I remember your response as equivalent to your wife would rather do just about anything else than eat with people who love Jesus. Can I paste teh e mail? No. Am I 100% over the insult? Yes. Do I hold anything against you? No. Do I think you will bring this up when you give my eulogy at my funeral 50 years from now? Yes. Let it rest Dave, freinds like us have got to get on with life. --------------------- Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: 12/11/2000 17:17:46 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net Well, will miracles never cease? Bill Morgan has actually responded to my having answered his question about polystrate fossils! Almost every other time I had answered one of his questions, he was next seen high-tailing it for the next county just as fast as his legs could carry him. I didn't catch it -- when did we receive the first report of flying pigs? >>Thank you very much for the e amil and I agree the burden of proof is on me to find a specific example of a polystrate fossil if I am making the claim they exist! If it is a phoney claim, not only won't I state they exist, I will correct other Creation people not to claim they exist.<< I'm sorry, Bill M, but that looks too much to me like yet another weasel maneuver, albeit somewhat more subtle than you usually try to pull, so you're improving. I am going to have to ask some direct questions to which I fully expect to see your answers. Why are you suddenly raising the issue of whether the polystrate fossil claims are false? And that last sentence in which you say you would correct other creationists making "phoney" claims appears to be an attempt to divert our attention away from the question of the polystrate claim. In other words, you're starting another "rabbit trail" there, quite a bit more subtly than you usually do, but a "rabbit trail" nonetheless. Bill M, you had asked me: "Dave, what is an explanation for polystrate fossils?" Now it looks like you are trying to distance yourself from the polystrate fossil claim by saying "if I am making the claim they exist". Well, are you making the claim that they exist or aren't you? If you are making that claim, then simply say so. If you are not making that claim, then why did you ask me that question in the first place? If you don't know of any examples of polystrate fossils, then why did you ask me for an explanation for them? Were you just bluffing? Bill M, you know that I do not bluff. You should also know that I am in these discussions for the information, so a bluff has no effect on me except to irritate me; I expect all hands to be shown so that all information can be shared. That is, after all, one of the marks of an open and examining mind. Or did I short-circuit your example with my own example of a claim I had researched? Or with my short exposition on how that claim misrepresented geology? Bill M, if you do not know of any specific example of a polystrate fossil, then please make a simple and direct statement to that effect (actually, I was expecting you to mention the Lompoc whale fossil). If you do have a specific example of one, then please make a simple and direct statement to that effect and present it. If you need more time to dig for the references and will need to get back with us on it later, then please make a simple and direct statement to that effect, tell us what little you do know, being sure to point out what you are doubtful about, AND BE SURE TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH YOUR PROMISE to get back with us on it. That would include prompt and honest responses to our subsequent inquiries about that example. In any of the above cases, you would also need to tell us why you think that geology is unable to explain them. Obviously, you believe that polystrate fossils present problems for geologists. Exactly what problems do you believe that they present? What assumptions are you making in identifying them as problems? Those questions can still be answered whether polystrate fossils are "phoney" or not. They must still be answered and discussed, because they relate directly to the claims in question, which are still being used by Kent Hovind and many other creationists, whether they are true or not. You asked your question in your reply concerning Kent Hovind, so I would assume that you were thinking of Hovind's claims concerning polystrate fossils. I do know that Kent Hovind uses such claims, including the one about the Lompoc whale fossil. What is he trying to say with those claims and what assumptions is he making? As Carl Drews commented, Gary Parker makes the false claim that geologists cannot explain polystrate fossils, whereas in truth geologists have been able to explain them for well over 100 years. In the example that Paul Ekdahl had given me, his creationist source claimed that geology only accepts slow gradual depositing and cannot account for rapid burial (also a common theme in several other Flood Geology claims), whereas in truth geology readily recognizes rapid burial, has no problem whatsoever with it, and knows what to look for, as described explicitly in the scientific source that the creationist had used. So what claims is Kent Hovind making? And what claims were you, Bill M, p lanning on making when you asked that question? As you should know by now, Bill Morgan, I do expect answers. Here's your chance to start pulling your grade up from that rock-solid F you've been maintaining for the past four years. ################################################ Subj: Re: Kent Hovind speaking in Southern Cal Date: 12/11/2000 17:19:01 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack321@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>I do not understand why you say I have never responded to "being insulted."<< Bill Morgan, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!? I have NEVER make that statement!! SHOW ME the message where you claim that I had said that!! SHOW ME!!! Or admit to us that you are a liar! STOP YOUR "IDIOT ACT"!! STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING!! What is wrong with you? Bill Morgan, YOU are the PREPETRATOR!! YOU are the TRANSGRESSOR!! What part of that do you not understand? Bill Morgan, you made several very serious accusations against me! You have repeatedly refused to substantiate those accusations, even though I have requested it over forty times! THAT is what this is all about! What part of that do you not understand? Bill Morgan, those accusations you made against me were a direct PERSONAL ATTACK AGAINST ME!! I was DEEPLY INSULTED by them!! I was DEEPLY INSULTED by your refusal to substantiate those accusations!! I am DEEPLY INSULTED by your persistent refusal to allow us to resolve this matter!! I was DEEPLY INSULTED by your unilateral AND UTTERLY FALSE declaration of resolution!! I AM DEEPLY INSULTED by your refusal to accept responsibility for your actions!! I am DEEPLY INSULTED by your trying to pose as the victim. *I* AM THE VICTIM HERE!! *Y*O*U* ARE THE PERPETRATOR!! The perpetrator cannot pardon himself!! Not even Nixon could do that! And I am DEEPLY INSULTED by your hypocritical posturing: "Am I 100% over the insult? Yes. Do I hold anything against you? No." Your statement makes just about as much sense as Hitler forgiving the death camp victims for having been exterminated by the Nazis! Your statement is absolutely ludicrous and DEEPLY INSULTING!! What part of the grave and deep insults that you have inflicted upon me do you not understand? >>For the last time, when I invited you and your wife to dinner with my wife and I, ... << Bill M, we have been through this before. That message does not exist. You never extended an invitation for my wife and me to dine with YOUR WIFE and you. You requested that message, I looked for it, and it simply does not exist. I told you that and I showed you that. Why don't you ever listen, Bill M? If you really think that that message exists, then you need to look for it yourself and show it to me. >> ... I remember your response as equivalent to your wife would rather do just about anything else than eat with people who love Jesus.<< I HAVE NEVER SAID SUCH A THING!!! I would NEVER say such a thing! We have frequently eaten with "people who love Jesus." We have many friends who are "people who love Jesus." SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ACCUSATION!! SHOW ME THE MESSAGE!!! Show me what I wrote!! Look it up and show it to me! >>Do I think you will bring this up when you give my eulogy at my funeral 50 years from now? Yes.<< With your personal attacks against me, you have made this a very personal matter for me. I will get satisfaction. I am determined to pursue this matter until I can get it resolved, sooner or later. I would very much prefer that it be sooner. Unfortunately, it is all up to you, Bill M. As for your eulogy, you'd better find somebody else to speak well of you. I cannot find in you a single redeeming quality to mention. ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/11/2000 20:27:16 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net If myths turn you on, enjoy yourself. = ) Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bequette To: Bill Morgan ; Cc: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 12:58 AM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Thanks but I deserve nothing only the Lord is my hero! -----Original Message----- From: Bill Morgan To: BillBeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Date: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Bill, you are an encouragement, a light in a very dark world! > > >>From: "Bill Bequette" >>To: "Bill Morgan" , >>CC: >>Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >>Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:29:54 -0800 >> >>Why can't we all just get along? >>Peace, love and brotherly goodwill to all! >>To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ >>is >>so near! Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us! Dave >>Wise I love you! I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will >>accept Christ as your savior!!! GOD IS AWESOME!!!! >>Love, >> Bill B. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Bill Morgan" >>To: >>Cc: ; >>Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM >>Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >> >> >> > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! >> > >> > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >>Licensed >> > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? >> > >> > >> > >From: DWise1@aol.com >> > >To: >> > >CC: , , >> > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >> > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST >> > > >> > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate >> > >crime. << >> > > >> > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! >> > > >> > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " >> > > >> > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say >>is >> > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on >>putting >> > >on your "idiot act". >> > > >> > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >>the >> > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False >> > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? >> > > >> > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >>__________________________________________________________________________ __ >>_________ >> > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >>http://explorer.msn.com >> > >> > >___________________________________________________________________________ __________ >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:27:16 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:26:40 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBC4QZa84789; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:26:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <002801c063f4$0ccff820$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <001e01c0633f$b9332480$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:28:58 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Einstein, Chance, Freewill Date: 12/11/2000 20:31:20 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Bequette , you wrote: "Well I have studied enough biology to know that God designed all living things and nothing is by chance except maybe the current election!" Einstein had a hard time accepting chance too. Eventually he came around. = ) Einstein also posed an interesting question to some religious people: If God is all-knowing and knows the future, then can there be freewill? Is the term 'sin' meaningless? Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: ; ; Cc: Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:03 AM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > Bill, this is the guy who did not even know what a mutation was! > > Some Biology expert! > > But Bill, in america everyone has a right to lie to themself, your job is to > not believe thier lie. Fusion requires energy input. Stars make heavy > elements by fusion. The atheists deny this simple fact. > > Peas, > Bill > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" > >, > >CC: > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:48:31 -0600 > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > >"Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to > >chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!!" > > > >I hate to break it to you guys but we are related to all things living and > >non-living. The carbon in our bodies is the result of long dead stars. > >Protons, neutrons and electrons -- bundled energy -- make up everything. > >We > >are related to everything. > > > >You can learn a lot if you widen your perspective. > > > >Try picking up a book other than The Bible. You might learn something. > > > >= ) > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Bequette > >To: Mark ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 6:18 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Bill and I are not related to the chimps. If you choose to be related to > >chimps that is your business! Monkey Man!!!! > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Mark > >To: Bill Bequette ; Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 3:50 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > >"Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and > >your wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by > >our Lord to have such great lives! > > > >"As for the monkeys well....." > > > >Although we are not descendants of 'monkeys', we do share 99+% the DNA with > >chimps. Simians are our evolutionary cousins. > > > >= ) > > > > > >Mark > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Bequette > >To: Bill Morgan ; DWise1@aol.com > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 5:23 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Hey Bill have a great weekend. I really look forward to seeing you and > >your > >wonderful wife and family in Church this Sunday. We are so blessed by our > >Lord to have such great lives! > >God Bless! > >Bill > > > >As for the monkeys well..... > >next > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > >Cc: editor@liberator.net > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:22 PM > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > > >Oh a Wise Guy! > > > >nyuk nyuk > > > >And I dont drive a Saturn, I own a Lincoln and a Ford. > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: , > > >CC: , > > >Subject: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:15:24 EST > > > > > >How about that, a double-Billing. > > > > > >Since you two Bills are such Stooges fans, I just thought you might like > >to > > >know that there is a 2001 Three Stooges calendar. I saw them at the > >Irvine > > >Barnes & Noble, but I would think that the Huntington Beach or the Costa > > >Mesa > > >store should have them too. > > > > > >The idea for your Saturnalia is for each of you to buy one and give it to > > >the > > >other Bill. With the over-active imagination that Bill M has > >demonstrated > > >here, I'm sure that he would have no problem acting surprised -- I also > > >suspect that he would be able to blot the memory of the plan from his > >mind, > > >or at least rewrite history to his convenience. It might prove more > > >difficult for Bill B, but maybe he could fake it after all. Anything > >would > > >be better than for him to greet the opening of each present with "Next!". > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ > >_________ > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa04.mx.aol.com (rly-xa04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.73]) by air-xa05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:31:20 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-xa04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:31:04 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBC4Uta85278; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:30:55 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <003701c063f4$a7672a20$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <003d01c06334$0b6cc1e0$31708218@we.mediaone.net> Subject: Einstein, Chance, Freewill Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:33:18 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Christianity, Women's Rights Date: 12/11/2000 20:39:30 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com Bill Bequette , you wrote: "Toying with people who are so sensitive is probably a sin and I am definitely a sinner. Oh well I am so badddd!" It's nice to be a modern Christian such as yourself. You have the freedom of commiting a sin as long as you go to church on Sunday every week. The hypocrisy is hilarious. "Bye all and JESUS LIVES!!!!" Mythical stories of long-haired martyrs bore me. I say Christianity needs to be cleaned up. Why are women treated as second-class citizens and not allowed to achieve positions of leadership in the church? Look at Greek Mythology. Athena, Goddess of War AND Wisdom, is celebrated as a strong female figure. Now look at the message that Christian women get. Christianity needs an overhaul, unless the goal is to keep women down. = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:05 AM Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > Bill, don't let him get to you, he is learninga little biology now he thinks > he is dangerous! :) > > All life on earth is carbon based (some think there is silicon based life > but that has not yet been found. > > Notice that his only argument is to call you a name. That is 2nd maybe 3rd > grade level of arguement...stay above that Bill. > > Freedom, > Bill > > > >From: "Mark" > >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" > >, > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > >"I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who are > >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" > > > >If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may not > >have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. > > > >= ) > > > >It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think. It's no > >wonder > >why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a > >block > >of carbon. > > > >= ) > > > >Mark > >The Liberator > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Bill Morgan > >To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > >Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice Denny's > >dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, but > >why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > > > >It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an > >evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to counter > >attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > > > >Delusion is no solution. > > > >Requests I made for dinner: 43 > >Accepted: 0 > > > >% for the skuptics: 0% > > > > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" > > >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > > > >Right on Bill! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Bill Morgan > > > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > > Closed mind? > > > > > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who won't? > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > > >To: > > > >CC: , , > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, > >please > > >do > > > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > > > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both ears > > >and > > > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness to > >us > > > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds > >firmly > > > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure to > >any > > > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > > > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did the > > > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > >__________ > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ > >_________ > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za04.mx.aol.com (rly-za04.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.100]) by air-za03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:39:30 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-za04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:38:55 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBC4cja86165; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:38:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <003e01c063f5$bf4855a0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , References: <003701c06333$e50eacc0$31708218@we.mediaone.net> Subject: Christianity, Women's Rights Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:41:08 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: 12/11/2000 20:45:26 Pacific Standard Time From: spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark) To: BillBeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Bequette , you wrote: "To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ is so near!" There is evidence to suggest that the birth of Christ was placed at this time to steal followers away from Paganism. Pagans heavily celebrated this time of year and the Christians wanted in on it. "Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us!" Mythical figures cannot love. Only people can love one another. "I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will accept Christ as your savior!!!" Mythical figures can inspire us but let's not take it too far. "GOD IS AWESOME!!!!" Personally, I see more value with Greek Mythology than I do Jewish Mythology. So I prefer you use the word Gods -- plural. = ) Mark The Liberator E-Mail: editor@liberator.net Web Site: http://liberator.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Morgan" To: Cc: ; Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! > > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate > >crime. << > > > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > > > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > > > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say is > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on putting > >on your "idiot act". > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (rly-yg05.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.5]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:45:26 -0500 Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (kitten2.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by rly-yg05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 23:45:09 -0500 Received: from liber8r (liber8r.pr.mcs.net [199.3.42.5]) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBC4j6a86883; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:45:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from spambuster@gigagod.com) Message-ID: <004301c063f6$a2beece0$052a03c7@liber8r> From: "Mark" To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: <002f01c06333$67e64500$31708218@we.mediaone.net> Subject: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:47:29 -0600 Organization: n/a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 ################################################ Subj: 45 Date: 12/12/2000 09:54:25 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: editor@liberator.net Let the record show I wanna go to dennys >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:58:35 EST > > >>Because he enjoys the arguments more than working things out. Hey a lot >of people are like that. Bill don't waste your time. Just add him to your >filter where his email goes in the trash! >:)<< > >Bill B, I really do want to work this out. It is Bill Morgan who has >consistently and persistently blocked any possibility of resolution in this >matter. Anybody looking at the facts would plainly see that. The record >clearly shows what had happened. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (rly-zd02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.226]) by air-zd04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:54:25 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f47.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.47]) by rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:54:05 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:50:26 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:50:26 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: 45 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:50:26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 17:50:26.0925 (UTC) FILETIME=[0295C1D0:01C06464] ################################################ Subj: 44 Date: 12/12/2000 09:59:15 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net For the 44th time I lovingly invite you to dennys so we can patch up our differences and restore our friendship. For the 62nd time, I hate tpying. I prefer a large root beer, chicken strips, and a hot fudge sundae sprinkled with pleasant conversation and garnished with mirth, joy and laughter to the squalid and sterile confines of e mail exchange. I will bring my baby, she now can sit in the booster chair and you can see her eat raisins and realize that this Bill Morgan cat is a nice guy, a great husband, a superb father and dear friend. Am I a bad person because I dont like typing? Lets eat! >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:55:00 EST > > >>For the 43rd time, lets meet at Dennys and resolve all this tangled web. > Why won't you work to repair what was once a great friendship?<< > >Bill M, HOW DARE YOU CLAIM TO HAVE ASKED FOR RESOLUTION FOR 43 TIMES!!! >*YO*U* ARE THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN BLOCKING RESOLUTION ALL THIS TIME! > >A restaurant would not be the appropriate place for such a meeting. We >will need to identify the messages upon which you had based your >accusations. This is the appropriate place. > >If you are serious about finally allowing us to resolve this matter, then >let's do it right here and now. > >Bill M, for the FORTY-THIRD TIME, let us resolve this matter! Present to >us the messages in which I had allegedly done the terrible things that you >have accused me of! Or give us enough information about those messages so >that we can find and identify the messages in question. Or admit >explicitly INDIVIDUALLY FOR EACH AND ONE OF THE ACCUSATIONS that you had >never based them on anything that I had written and that you had made the >whole thing up. > >Then you had better be able to give us a damned good explanation why you >had refused to allow us to resolve this matter. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-za01.mx.aol.com (rly-za01.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.97]) by air-za05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:59:15 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f65.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.65]) by rly-za01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:58:45 1900 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:49:42 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:49:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net Subject: 44 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:49:42 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 17:49:42.0747 (UTC) FILETIME=[E840BAB0:01C06463] ################################################ Subj: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: 12/12/2000 10:08:03 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: spambuster@gigagod.com, BillBeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net I agree with Mark that dec 25th was picked to wipe out a pagan mythological celebration. A true atheist, would go to work on Christmas. Are you true to your beliefs Mark? >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears > = ) >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:47:29 -0600 > >Bill Bequette , you wrote: > >"To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ >is so near!" > >There is evidence to suggest that the birth of Christ was placed at this >time to steal followers away from Paganism. Pagans heavily celebrated this >time of year and the Christians wanted in on it. > >"Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us!" > >Mythical figures cannot love. Only people can love one another. > >"I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will accept Christ as >your savior!!!" > >Mythical figures can inspire us but let's not take it too far. > >"GOD IS AWESOME!!!!" > >Personally, I see more value with Greek Mythology than I do Jewish >Mythology. So I prefer you use the word Gods -- plural. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: >Cc: ; >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! > > > > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >Licensed > > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: > > >CC: , , > > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > > > > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate > > >crime. << > > > > > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > > > > > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > > > > > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say >is > > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on >putting > > >on your "idiot act". > > > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the > > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd02.mx.aol.com (rly-yd02.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.2]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:08:03 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f26.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.26]) by rly-yd02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:07:17 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:07:14 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:07:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: spambuster@gigagod.com, BillBeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:07:14 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 18:07:14.0425 (UTC) FILETIME=[5B1A0E90:01C06466] ################################################ Subj: Re: 46 Date: 12/12/2000 10:10:05 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Why don't you both meet at a neutral location. I could bring my Bible and you both could swear to God that you will both be kind to each other while discussing whatever! LET US MEET AND HAVE A PRAYER DISCUSSION!!!!! JESUS ROCKS!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:02 PM Subject: 46 The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship. What do you mean your job is on a death march? Are they closing your department? Is the company closing? What do you do? I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a business. I have a great indea for a business Dave! With all of these football players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that will reduce them. I need capital though. Want to go in with me? >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:17 EST > > >>Are you married or have a girl friend? I bet not. If you do I bet you >don't have kids! :)<< > >Boy, Bill B, you really have not been paying any attention, have you? A >few of Bill M's false accusations against me concern my wife. > >Yes, I am married. I have two sons. I have a full-time job where right >now we are on a death march. I am taking three classes. > >I really do not have the time for Bill M to be wasting like this. But he >has slandered me. He has attacked me personally. He has repeatedly >insulted me deeply. And he is trying to avoid responsibility for his >actions. > >Bill B, the facts have been presented to you in the past. Yet instead of >standing up for Christian ideals and principles, you applaud Bill M's >unChristian actions. > >Look back at the record and you will see that I have repeatedly called for >uncovering the facts behind Bill M's slanderous accusations. At the same >time, Bill M has been preventing discovery of the facts. > >All I am asking for is justice and for the truth to be known. I do not >want Bill M to yet again avoid responsibility for his actions. > >It's a pity that modern Christians care so little for truth. > > >>If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) << > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Why don't you both meet at a neutral location.  I could bring my Bible and you both could swear to God that you will both be kind to each other while discussing whatever! 
LET US MEET AND HAVE A PRAYER DISCUSSION!!!!!  JESUS ROCKS!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:02 PM
Subject: 46
The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship. What do you mean your job is on a death march?  Are they closing your department? Is the company closing? What do you do? I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a business.   I have a great indea for a business Dave!  With all of these football players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that will reduce them. I need capital though.  Want to go in with me? >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:17 EST > > >>Are you married or have a girl friend?  I bet not.  If you do I bet you >don't have kids! :)<< > >Boy, Bill B, you really have not been paying any attention, have you?  A >few of Bill M's false accusations against me concern my wife. > >Yes, I am married.  I have two sons.  I have a full-time job where right >now we are on a death march.  I am taking three classes. > >I really do not have the time for Bill M to be wasting like this.  But he >has slandered me.  He has attacked me personally.  He has repeatedly >insulted me deeply.  And he is trying to avoid responsibility for his >actions. > >Bill B, the facts have been presented to you in the past.  Yet instead of >standing up for Christian ideals and principles, you applaud Bill M's >unChristian actions. > >Look back at the record and you will see that I have repeatedly called for >uncovering the facts behind Bill M's slanderous accusations.  At the same >time, Bill M has been preventing discovery of the facts. > >All I am asking for is justice and for the truth to be known.  I do not >want Bill M to yet again avoid responsibility for his actions. > >It's a pity that modern Christians care so little for truth. > > >>If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) << > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:05 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:09:22 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25037; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:09:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004401c06466$3553cca0$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: 46 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:06:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01C06423.261C5D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/12/2000 10:10:34 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net I passed the state of california board of registration for professional and land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento ca 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:41:35 EST > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > >>Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< > >And for what reason should I not? You did make a serious accusation >against me there. It had no factual basis in reality. Please explain why >I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. > >It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had >distorted the meaning of what I had written. > > > >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< > >Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that >claim was made. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:34 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f129.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.129]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:14 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:45:44 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:45:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net, editor@liberator.net Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 17:45:44 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 17:45:44.0952 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A841780:01C06463] ################################################ Subj: Re: 45 Date: 12/12/2000 10:10:37 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Well Bill Morgan wants to meet! How about it guys? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:50 PM Subject: 45 Let the record show I wanna go to dennys >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:58:35 EST > > >>Because he enjoys the arguments more than working things out. Hey a lot >of people are like that. Bill don't waste your time. Just add him to your >filter where his email goes in the trash! >:)<< > >Bill B, I really do want to work this out. It is Bill Morgan who has >consistently and persistently blocked any possibility of resolution in this >matter. Anybody looking at the facts would plainly see that. The record >clearly shows what had happened. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Well Bill Morgan wants to meet!  How about it guys?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:50 PM
Subject: 45
Let the record show I wanna go to dennys >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:58:35 EST > > >>Because he enjoys the arguments more than working things out.  Hey a lot >of people are like that.  Bill don't waste your time.  Just add him to your >filter where his email goes in the trash! >:)<< > >Bill B, I really do want to work this out.  It is Bill Morgan who has >consistently and persistently blocked any possibility of resolution in this >matter.  Anybody looking at the facts would plainly see that.  The record >clearly shows what had happened. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (rly-xd02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.167]) by air-xd01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:37 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-xd02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:04 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25484; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:09:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004d01c06466$49b1ba40$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: 45 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:06:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C06423.3ACCB0E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: 44 Date: 12/12/2000 10:10:58 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Well David????? Gonna back out againnnnnnnnnnnnn? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:49 PM Subject: 44 For the 44th time I lovingly invite you to dennys so we can patch up our differences and restore our friendship. For the 62nd time, I hate tpying. I prefer a large root beer, chicken strips, and a hot fudge sundae sprinkled with pleasant conversation and garnished with mirth, joy and laughter to the squalid and sterile confines of e mail exchange. I will bring my baby, she now can sit in the booster chair and you can see her eat raisins and realize that this Bill Morgan cat is a nice guy, a great husband, a superb father and dear friend. Am I a bad person because I dont like typing? Lets eat! >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:55:00 EST > > >>For the 43rd time, lets meet at Dennys and resolve all this tangled web. > Why won't you work to repair what was once a great friendship?<< > >Bill M, HOW DARE YOU CLAIM TO HAVE ASKED FOR RESOLUTION FOR 43 TIMES!!! >*YO*U* ARE THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN BLOCKING RESOLUTION ALL THIS TIME! > >A restaurant would not be the appropriate place for such a meeting. We >will need to identify the messages upon which you had based your >accusations. This is the appropriate place. > >If you are serious about finally allowing us to resolve this matter, then >let's do it right here and now. > >Bill M, for the FORTY-THIRD TIME, let us resolve this matter! Present to >us the messages in which I had allegedly done the terrible things that you >have accused me of! Or give us enough information about those messages so >that we can find and identify the messages in question. Or admit >explicitly INDIVIDUALLY FOR EACH AND ONE OF THE ACCUSATIONS that you had >never based them on anything that I had written and that you had made the >whole thing up. > >Then you had better be able to give us a damned good explanation why you >had refused to allow us to resolve this matter. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Well David????? Gonna back out againnnnnnnnnnnnn?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com
Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:49 PM
Subject: 44
For the 44th time I lovingly invite you to dennys so we can patch up our differences and restore our friendship. For the 62nd time, I hate tpying.  I prefer a large root beer, chicken strips, and a hot fudge sundae sprinkled with pleasant conversation and garnished with mirth, joy and laughter to the squalid and sterile confines of e mail exchange. I will bring my baby, she now can sit in the booster chair and you can see her eat raisins and realize that this Bill Morgan cat is a nice guy, a great husband, a superb father and dear friend. Am I a bad person because I dont like typing?  Lets eat! >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >CC: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:55:00 EST > > >>For the 43rd time, lets meet at Dennys and resolve all this tangled web. >  Why won't you work to repair what was once a great friendship?<< > >Bill M, HOW DARE YOU CLAIM TO HAVE ASKED FOR RESOLUTION FOR 43 TIMES!!!  >*YO*U* ARE THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN BLOCKING RESOLUTION ALL THIS TIME! > >A restaurant would not be the appropriate place for such a meeting.  We >will need to identify the messages upon which you had based your >accusations.  This is the appropriate place. > >If you are serious about finally allowing us to resolve this matter, then >let's do it right here and now. > >Bill M, for the FORTY-THIRD TIME, let us resolve this matter!  Present to >us the messages in which I had allegedly done the terrible things that you >have accused me of!  Or give us enough information about those messages so >that we can find and identify the messages in question.  Or admit >explicitly INDIVIDUALLY FOR EACH AND ONE OF THE ACCUSATIONS that you had >never based them on anything that I had written and that you had made the >whole thing up. > >Then you had better be able to give us a damned good explanation why you >had refused to allow us to resolve this matter. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (rly-yc05.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.37]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:58 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yc05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:10:17 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25747; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:10:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005601c06466$5643ce60$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: 44 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:07:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0053_01C06423.4767ECC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/12/2000 10:11:44 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of California. Retract your slanderous statements! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: DWise1@aol.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:45 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills I passed the state of california board of registration for professional and land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento ca 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: >CC: , , >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:41:35 EST > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > >>Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< > >And for what reason should I not? You did make a serious accusation >against me there. It had no factual basis in reality. Please explain why >I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. > >It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had >distorted the meaning of what I had written. > > > >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< > >Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that >claim was made. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of California.  Retract your slanderous statements!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: DWise1@aol.com
Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
I  passed the state of california board of registration for professional and land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento ca 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers. >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >CC: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:41:35 EST > ><DWise1> > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to the > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me?  False > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > ><Bill M> > >>Oh gosh no!  Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< > >And for what reason should I not?  You did make a serious accusation >against me there.  It had no factual basis in reality.  Please explain why >I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. > >It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had >distorted the meaning of what I had written. > > > >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being  a registered >Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< > >Whatever are you talking about?  Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that >claim was made. > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (rly-ye05.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.202]) by air-ye03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:11:44 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-ye05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:11:31 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26833; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:11:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005f01c06466$85ccb0c0$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:08:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01C06423.76CF3D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Christianity, Women's Rights Date: 12/12/2000 10:12:24 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: spambuster@gigagod.com, BillBeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com "There is nither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in ChristJesus. Galatians 3:28 Now please retract your statement that the Bible says women are second class citizens. >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >Subject: Christianity, Women's Rights >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:41:08 -0600 > >Bill Bequette , you wrote: > >"Toying with people who are so sensitive is probably a sin and I am >definitely a sinner. Oh well I am so badddd!" > >It's nice to be a modern Christian such as yourself. You have the freedom >of commiting a sin as long as you go to church on Sunday every week. The >hypocrisy is hilarious. > >"Bye all and JESUS LIVES!!!!" > >Mythical stories of long-haired martyrs bore me. I say Christianity needs >to be cleaned up. Why are women treated as second-class citizens and not >allowed to achieve positions of leadership in the church? Look at Greek >Mythology. Athena, Goddess of War AND Wisdom, is celebrated as a strong >female figure. Now look at the message that Christian women get. > >Christianity needs an overhaul, unless the goal is to keep women down. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: ; ; >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:05 AM >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > Bill, don't let him get to you, he is learninga little biology now he >thinks > > he is dangerous! :) > > > > All life on earth is carbon based (some think there is silicon based >life > > but that has not yet been found. > > > > Notice that his only argument is to call you a name. That is 2nd maybe >3rd > > grade level of arguement...stay above that Bill. > > > > Freedom, > > Bill > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" > > >, > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 > > > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > > > >"I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who >are > > >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" > > > > > >If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may >not > > >have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think. It's no > > >wonder > > >why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a > > >block > > >of carbon. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Bill Morgan > > >To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > >Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice >Denny's > > >dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, >but > > >why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > > > > > >It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an > > >evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to >counter > > >attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > > > > > >Delusion is no solution. > > > > > >Requests I made for dinner: 43 > > >Accepted: 0 > > > > > >% for the skuptics: 0% > > > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > > > > > >Right on Bill! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Bill Morgan > > > > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > > > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > > > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > > > > > Closed mind? > > > > > > > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who >won't? > > > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > > > >To: > > > > >CC: , , > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > > > > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, > > >please > > > >do > > > > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > > > > > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both >ears > > > >and > > > > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness >to > > >us > > > > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds > > >firmly > > > > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure >to > > >any > > > > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > > > > > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did >the > > > > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > > >__________ > > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >_ > > >_________ > > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (rly-yd05.mail.aol.com [172.18.150.5]) by air-yd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:12:24 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f41.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.41]) by rly-yd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:11:13 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:05:44 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:05:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: spambuster@gigagod.com, BillBeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Subject: Re: Christianity, Women's Rights Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:05:43 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 18:05:44.0166 (UTC) FILETIME=[254DA060:01C06466] ################################################ Subj: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: 12/12/2000 10:13:36 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), spambuster@gigagod.com, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net well? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; BillBeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) I agree with Mark that dec 25th was picked to wipe out a pagan mythological celebration. A true atheist, would go to work on Christmas. Are you true to your beliefs Mark? >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >CC: >Subject: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears > = ) >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:47:29 -0600 > >Bill Bequette , you wrote: > >"To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ >is so near!" > >There is evidence to suggest that the birth of Christ was placed at this >time to steal followers away from Paganism. Pagans heavily celebrated this >time of year and the Christians wanted in on it. > >"Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us!" > >Mythical figures cannot love. Only people can love one another. > >"I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will accept Christ as >your savior!!!" > >Mythical figures can inspire us but let's not take it too far. > >"GOD IS AWESOME!!!!" > >Personally, I see more value with Greek Mythology than I do Jewish >Mythology. So I prefer you use the word Gods -- plural. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: >Cc: ; >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! > > > > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered >Licensed > > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: > > >CC: , , > > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > > > > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate > > >crime. << > > > > > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan. READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > > > > > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > > > > > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"? No, I did not! What I did say >is > > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act". Like you insist on >putting > > >on your "idiot act". > > > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the > > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? False > > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
well?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; BillBeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = )
I agree with Mark that dec 25th was picked to wipe out a pagan mythological celebration. A true atheist, would go to work on Christmas.  Are you true to your beliefs Mark? >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com> >To: "Bill Bequette" <BillBeq@mediaone.net>,   "Bill Morgan" ><billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com> >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Gods -- plural -- are awesome.  Jewish Mythology bores me to tears >  = ) >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:47:29 -0600 > >Bill Bequette <BillBeq@mediaone.net>, you wrote: > >"To all on this day very near when the baby Jesus i.e. the birth of Christ >is so near!" > >There is evidence to suggest that the birth of Christ was placed at this >time to steal followers away from Paganism.  Pagans heavily celebrated this >time of year and the Christians wanted in on it. > >"Let us hold hands and love each other as Jesus loves us!" > >Mythical figures cannot love.  Only people can love one another. > >"I embrace you as a brother and hope you also someday will accept Christ as >your savior!!!" > >Mythical figures can inspire us but let's not take it too far. > >"GOD IS AWESOME!!!!" > >Personally, I see more value with Greek Mythology than I do Jewish >Mythology.  So I prefer you use the word Gods -- plural. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >To: <DWise1@aol.com> >Cc: <billbeq@mediaone.net>; <editor@liberator.net> >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:08 AM >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > > Oh gosh no!  Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list! > > > > By the way, did you retract your claim about my being  a registered >Licensed > > Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California? > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com> > > >CC: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> > > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2000 18:04:52 EST > > > > > > >>By calling Bill B a Christian jerk I hereby charge you with a hate > > >crime. << > > > > > >Excuse me, Bill Morgan.  READ WHAT I WROTE!!!!!! > > > > > >"So, because of his "Christian Jerk" act Bill B has ... " > > > > > >Did I call Bill B a "Christian Jerk"?  No, I did not!  What I did say >is > > >that he is putting on a "'Christian Jerk' act".  Like you insist on >putting > > >on your "idiot act". > > > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the > > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me?  False > > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > >Bill M, when are you ever going to learn to listen? > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (rly-yg02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.2]) by air-yg05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:13:35 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yg02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:13:14 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28186; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:13:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <008201c06466$c2cb0260$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , Cc: References: Subject: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:10:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01C06423.B3CD8F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: 47 Date: 12/12/2000 10:14:12 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Well were waiting? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: 47 I agree to teh terms set forth by this independent arbitrator. Do you Dave? >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , >CC: >Subject: Re: 46 >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:06:08 -0800 > >Why don't you both meet at a neutral location. I could bring my Bible and >you both could swear to God that you will both be kind to each other while >discussing whatever! >LET US MEET AND HAVE A PRAYER DISCUSSION!!!!! JESUS ROCKS!!!! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:02 PM > Subject: 46 > > > The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship. > > What do you mean your job is on a death march? Are they closing your > department? > > Is the company closing? > > What do you do? > > I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a >business. > I have a great indea for a business Dave! With all of these football > players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that >will > reduce them. I need capital though. Want to go in with me? > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: > >Subject: Re: 43 > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:17 EST > > > > >>Are you married or have a girl friend? I bet not. If you do I bet >you > >don't have kids! :)<< > > > >Boy, Bill B, you really have not been paying any attention, have you? >A > >few of Bill M's false accusations against me concern my wife. > > > >Yes, I am married. I have two sons. I have a full-time job where >right > >now we are on a death march. I am taking three classes. > > > >I really do not have the time for Bill M to be wasting like this. But >he > >has slandered me. He has attacked me personally. He has repeatedly > >insulted me deeply. And he is trying to avoid responsibility for his > >actions. > > > >Bill B, the facts have been presented to you in the past. Yet instead >of > >standing up for Christian ideals and principles, you applaud Bill M's > >unChristian actions. > > > >Look back at the record and you will see that I have repeatedly called >for > >uncovering the facts behind Bill M's slanderous accusations. At the >same > >time, Bill M has been preventing discovery of the facts. > > > >All I am asking for is justice and for the truth to be known. I do not > >want Bill M to yet again avoid responsibility for his actions. > > > >It's a pity that modern Christians care so little for truth. > > > > >>If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) << > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
Well were waiting? 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:10 PM
Subject: 47
I agree to teh terms set forth by this independent arbitrator.  Do you Dave? >From: "Bill Bequette" <billbeq@mediaone.net> >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com> >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: 46 >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:06:08 -0800 > >Why don't you both meet at a neutral location.  I could bring my Bible and >you both could swear to God that you will both be kind to each other while >discussing whatever! >LET US MEET AND HAVE A PRAYER DISCUSSION!!!!!  JESUS ROCKS!!!! >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: Bill Morgan >   To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net >   Cc: editor@liberator.net >   Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:02 PM >   Subject: 46 > > >   The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship. > >   What do you mean your job is on a death march?  Are they closing your >   department? > >   Is the company closing? > >   What do you do? > >   I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a >business. >     I have a great indea for a business Dave!  With all of these football >   players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that >will >   reduce them. I need capital though.  Want to go in with me? > > >   >From: DWise1@aol.com >   >To: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >   >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >   >Subject: Re: 43 >   >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:17 EST >   > >   > >>Are you married or have a girl friend?  I bet not.  If you do I bet >you >   >don't have kids! :)<< >   > >   >Boy, Bill B, you really have not been paying any attention, have you?  >A >   >few of Bill M's false accusations against me concern my wife. >   > >   >Yes, I am married.  I have two sons.  I have a full-time job where >right >   >now we are on a death march.  I am taking three classes. >   > >   >I really do not have the time for Bill M to be wasting like this.  But >he >   >has slandered me.  He has attacked me personally.  He has repeatedly >   >insulted me deeply.  And he is trying to avoid responsibility for his >   >actions. >   > >   >Bill B, the facts have been presented to you in the past.  Yet instead >of >   >standing up for Christian ideals and principles, you applaud Bill M's >   >unChristian actions. >   > >   >Look back at the record and you will see that I have repeatedly called >for >   >uncovering the facts behind Bill M's slanderous accusations.  At the >same >   >time, Bill M has been preventing discovery of the facts. >   > >   >All I am asking for is justice and for the truth to be known.  I do not >   >want Bill M to yet again avoid responsibility for his actions. >   > >   >It's a pity that modern Christians care so little for truth. >   > >   > >>If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) << >   > >   > > >   >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >   Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:14:12 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:13:01 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27965; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:12:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007901c06466$b8ef34a0$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: 47 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:09:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0076_01C06423.AA0BB1E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: Christianity, Women's Rights Date: 12/12/2000 10:14:22 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), spambuster@gigagod.com, DWise1@aol.com The Bible is never wrong. Only sinners are wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; BillBeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Christianity, Women's Rights "There is nither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in ChristJesus. Galatians 3:28 Now please retract your statement that the Bible says women are second class citizens. >From: "Mark" >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" >, >Subject: Christianity, Women's Rights >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:41:08 -0600 > >Bill Bequette , you wrote: > >"Toying with people who are so sensitive is probably a sin and I am >definitely a sinner. Oh well I am so badddd!" > >It's nice to be a modern Christian such as yourself. You have the freedom >of commiting a sin as long as you go to church on Sunday every week. The >hypocrisy is hilarious. > >"Bye all and JESUS LIVES!!!!" > >Mythical stories of long-haired martyrs bore me. I say Christianity needs >to be cleaned up. Why are women treated as second-class citizens and not >allowed to achieve positions of leadership in the church? Look at Greek >Mythology. Athena, Goddess of War AND Wisdom, is celebrated as a strong >female figure. Now look at the message that Christian women get. > >Christianity needs an overhaul, unless the goal is to keep women down. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" >To: ; ; >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:05 AM >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > Bill, don't let him get to you, he is learninga little biology now he >thinks > > he is dangerous! :) > > > > All life on earth is carbon based (some think there is silicon based >life > > but that has not yet been found. > > > > Notice that his only argument is to call you a name. That is 2nd maybe >3rd > > grade level of arguement...stay above that Bill. > > > > Freedom, > > Bill > > > > > > >From: "Mark" > > >To: "Bill Bequette" , "Bill Morgan" > > >, > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 > > > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > > > >"I think why can't we all just get along? The reason is that men who >are > > >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" > > > > > >If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may >not > > >have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think. It's no > > >wonder > > >why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a > > >block > > >of carbon. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Bill Morgan > > >To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > >Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice >Denny's > > >dinner. Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, >but > > >why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > > > > > >It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an > > >evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to >counter > > >attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > > > > > >Delusion is no solution. > > > > > >Requests I made for dinner: 43 > > >Accepted: 0 > > > > > >% for the skuptics: 0% > > > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" , , > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > > > > > >Right on Bill! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Bill Morgan > > > > To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > > > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > > > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > > > Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > > > > > Closed mind? > > > > > > > > Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who >won't? > > > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > > > > >To: > > > > >CC: , , > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > > > > > > > > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, > > >please > > > >do > > > > >not bother responding at all.<< > > > > > > > > > >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both >ears > > > >and > > > > >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can. He wants to witness >to > > >us > > > > >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds > > >firmly > > > > >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure >to > > >any > > > > >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > > > > > > > >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him. Or did >the > > > > >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > > >__________ > > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >_ > > >_________ > > >Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
The Bible is never wrong.  Only sinners are wrong.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: spambuster@gigagod.com ; BillBeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Christianity, Women's Rights
"There is nither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, for you are all one in ChristJesus. Galatians 3:28 Now please retract your statement that the Bible says women are second class citizens. >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com> >To: "Bill Bequette" <BillBeq@mediaone.net>,   "Bill Morgan" ><billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com> >Subject: Christianity, Women's Rights >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 22:41:08 -0600 > >Bill Bequette <BillBeq@mediaone.net>, you wrote: > >"Toying with people who are so sensitive is probably a sin and I am >definitely a sinner.  Oh well I am so badddd!" > >It's nice to be a modern Christian such as yourself.  You have the freedom >of commiting a sin as long as you go to church on Sunday every week.  The >hypocrisy is hilarious. > >"Bye all and JESUS LIVES!!!!" > >Mythical stories of long-haired martyrs bore me.  I say Christianity needs >to be cleaned up.  Why are women treated as second-class citizens and not >allowed to achieve positions of leadership in the church?  Look at Greek >Mythology.  Athena, Goddess of War AND Wisdom, is celebrated as a strong >female figure.  Now look at the message that Christian women get. > >Christianity needs an overhaul, unless the goal is to keep women down. > >= ) > >Mark >The Liberator >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>; <billbeq@mediaone.net>; <DWise1@aol.com> >Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 5:05 AM >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > Bill, don't let him get to you, he is learninga little biology now he >thinks > > he is dangerous!  :) > > > > All life on earth is carbon based (some think there is silicon based >life > > but that has not yet been found. > > > > Notice that his only argument is to call you a name.  That is 2nd maybe >3rd > > grade level of arguement...stay above that Bill. > > > > Freedom, > > Bill > > > > > > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com> > > >To: "Bill Bequette" <billbeq@mediaone.net>,   "Bill Morgan" > > ><billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com> > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > >Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 15:51:32 -0600 > > > > > >Bill Bequette, you wrote: > > > > > >"I think why can't we all just get along?  The reason is that men who >are > > >Godless can not get along with anyone but fellow heathens!" > > > > > >If religious men and women would have exercised that belief, there may >not > > >have been The Crusades and The Inquisition. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >It's funny how religionists try to demonize those who think.  It's no > > >wonder > > >why they are left with congrgations of sheep who are no smarter than a > > >block > > >of carbon. > > > > > >= ) > > > > > >Mark > > >The Liberator > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/ > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Bill Morgan > > >To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:35 PM > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > >Bill, the fact is these guys simply won't meet with me over a nice >Denny's > > >dinner.  Of course they have every right to not want to \meet with me, >but > > >why do they lie to themselves that I avoid them? > > > > > >It reminds me of Anthony Hopkins playing the role of Adolph Hitler (an > > >evolutionist) who in his mind has all these divisions in which to >counter > > >attack the the Russians (lead by evolutionist Joe Stalin. > > > > > >Delusion is no solution. > > > > > >Requests I made for dinner:  43 > > >Accepted: 0 > > > > > >% for the skuptics:  0% > > > > > > > > > >From: "Bill Bequette" <billbeq@mediaone.net> > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com>, > > > ><spambuster@gigagod.com> > > > >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > >Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:23:37 -0800 > > > > > > > >Right on Bill! > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   From: Bill Morgan > > > >   To: DWise1@aol.com ; spambuster@gigagod.com > > > >   Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net > > > >   Sent: Friday, December 08, 2000 11:20 PM > > > >   Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > > > > > > > > > >   Closed mind? > > > > > > > >   Who refuses to meet face to face like two human beings and who >won't? > > > > > > > >   Truth. > > > > > > > > > > > >   >From: DWise1@aol.com > > > >   >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com> > > > >   >CC: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <billbeq@mediaone.net>, > > ><DWise1@aol.com> > > > >   >Subject: Re: List of alleged falsehoods. > > > >   >Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 10:05:21 EST > > > >   > > > > >   > >>Bill B, if you can't take the time to respond intelligently, > > >please > > > >do > > > >   >not bother responding at all.<< > > > >   > > > > >   >That's just Bill B's way of clamping his hands firmly over both >ears > > > >and > > > >   >yelling "La! La! La! La!" as loud as he can.  He wants to witness >to > > >us > > > >   >that Christians are a pack of yerks who want to keep their minds > > >firmly > > > >   >closed and are afraid of the facts and of the slightest exposure >to > > >any > > > >   >ideas that differ from their preconceived notions. > > > >   > > > > >   >I wonder if he was this way before Bill M had turned him.  Or did >the > > > >   >condition start to set in when he converted? > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > > >__________ > > > >   Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : > > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ >_ > > >_________ > > >Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : > > >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________ >_________ > > Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:14:22 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:13:44 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28491; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:13:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <008b01c06466$d30780e0$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , , References: Subject: Re: Christianity, Women's Rights Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:10:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0088_01C06423.C423FE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: 46 Date: 12/12/2000 10:14:46 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: editor@liberator.net The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship. What do you mean your job is on a death march? Are they closing your department? Is the company closing? What do you do? I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a business. I have a great indea for a business Dave! With all of these football players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that will reduce them. I need capital though. Want to go in with me? >From: DWise1@aol.com >To: , >CC: >Subject: Re: 43 >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:17 EST > > >>Are you married or have a girl friend? I bet not. If you do I bet you >don't have kids! :)<< > >Boy, Bill B, you really have not been paying any attention, have you? A >few of Bill M's false accusations against me concern my wife. > >Yes, I am married. I have two sons. I have a full-time job where right >now we are on a death march. I am taking three classes. > >I really do not have the time for Bill M to be wasting like this. But he >has slandered me. He has attacked me personally. He has repeatedly >insulted me deeply. And he is trying to avoid responsibility for his >actions. > >Bill B, the facts have been presented to you in the past. Yet instead of >standing up for Christian ideals and principles, you applaud Bill M's >unChristian actions. > >Look back at the record and you will see that I have repeatedly called for >uncovering the facts behind Bill M's slanderous accusations. At the same >time, Bill M has been preventing discovery of the facts. > >All I am asking for is justice and for the truth to be known. I do not >want Bill M to yet again avoid responsibility for his actions. > >It's a pity that modern Christians care so little for truth. > > >>If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) << > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (rly-yc03.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.35]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:14:45 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f206.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.206]) by rly-yc03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:14:11 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:02:19 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:02:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: 46 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:02:19 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 18:02:19.0922 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB907720:01C06465] ################################################ Subj: PE Date: 12/12/2000 10:18:52 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net Please Dave, it will increase your credibility. >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:08:24 -0800 > >Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of >California. Retract your slanderous statements! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:45 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > I passed the state of california board of registration for professional >and > land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento >ca > 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. > > i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of > licensed mechanical engineers. > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:41:35 EST > > > > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the > > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? >False > > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > > > > > >>Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< > > > >And for what reason should I not? You did make a serious accusation > >against me there. It had no factual basis in reality. Please explain >why > >I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. > > > >It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had > >distorted the meaning of what I had written. > > > > > > >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered > >Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< > > > >Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where >that > >claim was made. > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh03.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:18:52 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f157.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.157]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:18:07 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:16:02 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:16:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: PE Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:16:02 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 18:16:02.0914 (UTC) FILETIME=[961B1420:01C06467] ################################################ Subj: Re: PE Date: 12/12/2000 10:27:10 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan), DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net What are Dave's credentials? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Morgan To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: PE Please Dave, it will increase your credibility. >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , >CC: >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:08:24 -0800 > >Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of >California. Retract your slanderous statements! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com > Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:45 PM > Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > > I passed the state of california board of registration for professional >and > land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento >ca > 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. > > i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of > licensed mechanical engineers. > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: > >CC: , , > >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:41:35 EST > > > > > > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the > > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me? >False > > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? > > > > > > > > > >>Oh gosh no! Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< > > > >And for what reason should I not? You did make a serious accusation > >against me there. It had no factual basis in reality. Please explain >why > >I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. > > > >It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had > >distorted the meaning of what I had written. > > > > > > >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered > >Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< > > > >Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where >that > >claim was made. > > > > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com --------------------
What are Dave's credentials?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan
To: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com
Cc: editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:16 PM
Subject: PE
Please Dave, it will increase your credibility. >From: "Bill Bequette" <billbeq@mediaone.net> >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, <DWise1@aol.com> >CC: <editor@liberator.net> >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:08:24 -0800 > >Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of >California.  Retract your slanderous statements! >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: Bill Morgan >   To: DWise1@aol.com >   Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; editor@liberator.net >   Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 5:45 PM >   Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills > > >   I  passed the state of california board of registration for professional >and >   land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento >ca >   95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. > >   i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of >   licensed mechanical engineers. > > >   >From: DWise1@aol.com >   >To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com> >   >CC: <billbeq@mediaone.net>, <DWise1@aol.com>, <editor@liberator.net> >   >Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >   >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 10:41:35 EST >   > >   ><DWise1> >   > >Shall I add your "I hereby charge you with a hate crime" statement to >the >   > >growing list of FALSE accusations that you have made against me?  >False >   > >accusations based only on your imagination and not on reality? >   > > >   > >   ><Bill M> >   > >>Oh gosh no!  Whatever you do PLEASE don't add it to the list!<< >   > >   >And for what reason should I not?  You did make a serious accusation >   >against me there.  It had no factual basis in reality.  Please explain >why >   >I should not add your "hate crime" accusation to the list. >   > >   >It might suffice for you to issue an explicit admission that you had >   >distorted the meaning of what I had written. >   > >   > >   > >>By the way, did you retract your claim about my being  a registered >   >Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?<< >   > >   >Whatever are you talking about?  Please describe SPECIFICALLY where >that >   >claim was made. >   > >   > >   > >   > > >   >_____________________________________________________________________________________ >   Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (rly-xd03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.168]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:27:10 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-xd03.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:26:48 1900 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08674; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:26:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00a301c06468$a67f2260$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: "Bill Morgan" , Cc: References: Subject: Re: PE Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:23:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A0_01C06425.97587C20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Babies are special! Date: 12/12/2000 10:34:43 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, morgan.william@sbeach.navy.mil (Morgan Jr., William C (NWS N444)) To my child..... > > Just for the morning, I am going to smile > when I see your face > and laugh when I feel like crying. > > Just for this morning, I will let you > choose what you want to wear, > and smile and say how perfect it is. > > Just for this morning, I am going to step > over the laundry, and pick you up > and take you to the park to play. > > Just for this morning, I will leave the > dishes in the sink, and let you > teach me how to put that puzzle of yours together. > > Just for this afternoon, I will unplug the > telephone and keep the computer off, > and sit with you in the backyard and > blow bubbles. > > Just for this afternoon, I will not yell > once, not even a tiny grumble when you scream > and whine for the ice cream truck, and I will buy > you one if he comes by. > > Just for this afternoon, I won't worry > about what you are going to > be when you grow up, or second guess every decision > I have made where you are concerned. > > Just for this afternoon, I will let you > help me bake cookies, and I won't > stand over you trying to fix them. > > Just for this afternoon, I will take us to > Mc Donald's and buy us both a > Happy Meal so you can have both toys. > > Just for this evening, I will hold you in > my arms and tell you a story about > how you were born and how much I love you. > > Just for this evening, I will let you > splash in the tub and not get angry. > > Just for this evening, I will let you stay > up late while we sit on the porch > and count all the stars. > > Just for this evening, I will snuggle > beside you for hours, and miss > my favorite TV shows. > > Just for this evening when I run my finger > through your hair as you pray, > I will simply be grateful that God has > given me the greatest gift > ever given. > > I will think about the mothers and fathers who are > searching for their missing children, > the mothers and fathers who are visiting their > children's graves instead of their bedrooms, > and mothers and fathers who are in > hospital rooms watching their children suffer senselessly, > and screaming inside they can't handle it anymore. > > And when I kiss you goodnight I will hold > you a little tighter, a little longer. It is then, > that I will thank God for you, and ask him for > nothing, except one more day............. > > > > Please pass this on to other mothers and fathers. > I think that we get too involved in our daily routines > that we tend to forget what great gifts our > children really are. > > We never know if God is going to give us one more day. Bill Bequette wrote: > Part 1.1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: quoted-printable > > Name: Image101.jpg > Image101.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 > > Name: Image102.jpg > Image102.jpg Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) > Encoding: base64 --------------------
 
To my child..... > >  Just for the morning, I am going to smile >  when I see your face >  and laugh when I feel like crying. > >  Just for this morning, I will let you >  choose what you want to wear, >  and smile and say how perfect it is. > >  Just for this morning, I am going to step >  over the laundry, and pick you up >  and take you to the park to play. > >  Just for this morning, I will leave the >  dishes in the sink, and let you >  teach me how to put that puzzle of yours together. > >  Just for this afternoon, I will unplug the >  telephone and keep the computer off, >  and sit with you in the backyard and >  blow bubbles. > >  Just for this afternoon, I will not yell >  once, not even a tiny grumble when you scream >  and whine for the ice cream truck, and I will buy >  you one if he comes by. > >  Just for this afternoon, I won't worry >  about what you are going to >  be when you grow up, or second guess every decision >  I have made where you are concerned. > >  Just for this afternoon, I will let you >  help me bake cookies, and I won't >  stand over you trying to fix them. > >  Just for this afternoon, I will take us to >  Mc Donald's and buy us both a >  Happy Meal so you can have both toys. > >  Just for this evening, I will hold you in >  my arms and tell you a story about >  how you were born and how much I love you. > >  Just for this evening, I will let you >  splash in the tub and not get angry. > >  Just for this evening, I will let you stay >  up late while we sit on the porch >  and count all the stars. > >  Just for this evening, I will snuggle >  beside you for hours, and miss >  my favorite TV shows. > >  Just for this evening when I run my finger >  through your hair as you pray, >  I will simply be grateful that God has >  given me the greatest gift >  ever given. > >  I will think about the mothers and fathers who are >  searching for their missing children, >  the mothers and fathers who are visiting their >  children's graves instead of their bedrooms, >  and mothers and fathers who are in >  hospital rooms watching their children suffer senselessly, >  and screaming inside they can't handle it anymore. > >  And when I kiss you goodnight I will hold >  you a little tighter, a little longer. It is then, >  that I will thank God for you, and ask him for >  nothing, except one more day............. > > > >  Please pass this on to other mothers and fathers. >  I think that we get too involved in our daily routines >  that we tend to forget what great gifts our >  children really are. > >  We never know if God is going to give us one more day. Bill Bequette wrote: >    Part 1.1.1    Type: Plain Text (text/plain) >              Encoding: quoted-printable > >                    Name: Image101.jpg >    Image101.jpg    Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) >                Encoding: base64 > >                    Name: Image102.jpg >    Image102.jpg    Type: JPEG Image (image/jpeg) >                Encoding: base64 ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd05.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:34:42 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:34:17 -0500 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust147.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.147]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14932; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:34:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ae01c06469$b3e5cf20$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , "Morgan Jr., William C \(NWS N444\)" Subject: Babies are special! Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:31:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C06426.A4E0BAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: 47 Date: 12/12/2000 10:44:47 Pacific Standard Time From: billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan) To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com CC: editor@liberator.net I agree to teh terms set forth by this independent arbitrator. Do you Dave? >From: "Bill Bequette" >To: "Bill Morgan" , >CC: >Subject: Re: 46 >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:06:08 -0800 > >Why don't you both meet at a neutral location. I could bring my Bible and >you both could swear to God that you will both be kind to each other while >discussing whatever! >LET US MEET AND HAVE A PRAYER DISCUSSION!!!!! JESUS ROCKS!!!! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Morgan > To: DWise1@aol.com ; billbeq@mediaone.net > Cc: editor@liberator.net > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:02 PM > Subject: 46 > > > The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship. > > What do you mean your job is on a death march? Are they closing your > department? > > Is the company closing? > > What do you do? > > I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a >business. > I have a great indea for a business Dave! With all of these football > players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that >will > reduce them. I need capital though. Want to go in with me? > > > >From: DWise1@aol.com > >To: , > >CC: > >Subject: Re: 43 > >Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:15:17 EST > > > > >>Are you married or have a girl friend? I bet not. If you do I bet >you > >don't have kids! :)<< > > > >Boy, Bill B, you really have not been paying any attention, have you? >A > >few of Bill M's false accusations against me concern my wife. > > > >Yes, I am married. I have two sons. I have a full-time job where >right > >now we are on a death march. I am taking three classes. > > > >I really do not have the time for Bill M to be wasting like this. But >he > >has slandered me. He has attacked me personally. He has repeatedly > >insulted me deeply. And he is trying to avoid responsibility for his > >actions. > > > >Bill B, the facts have been presented to you in the past. Yet instead >of > >standing up for Christian ideals and principles, you applaud Bill M's > >unChristian actions. > > > >Look back at the record and you will see that I have repeatedly called >for > >uncovering the facts behind Bill M's slanderous accusations. At the >same > >time, Bill M has been preventing discovery of the facts. > > > >All I am asking for is justice and for the truth to be known. I do not > >want Bill M to yet again avoid responsibility for his actions. > > > >It's a pity that modern Christians care so little for truth. > > > > >>If I typed as much as you do my wife would kill me :) << > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (rly-yg01.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.1]) by air-yg04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:44:47 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f193.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.193]) by rly-yg01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:44:14 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:10:55 -0800 Received: from 164.45.101.11 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:10:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [164.45.101.11] From: "Bill Morgan" To: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1@aol.com Cc: editor@liberator.net Subject: 47 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 18:10:55 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2000 18:10:55.0682 (UTC) FILETIME=[DEFB3220:01C06466] ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/12/2000 11:47:26 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>I passed the state of california board of registration for professional and land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento ca 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers.<< Bill M, I still don't know what you are talking about. I am sure that I had described it as you had described it to me. Please tell me precisely which web page you are talking about. ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/12/2000 12:13:44 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net Bill, he is being reasonable here. Which web page? Check the URL at the top of the browser and email us all back with it! ----- Original Message ----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:47 AM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >>I passed the state of california board of registration for professional and land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento ca 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers.<< Bill M, I still don't know what you are talking about. I am sure that I had described it as you had described it to me. Please tell me precisely which web page you are talking about. --------------------
Bill, he is being reasonable here.  Which web page?  Check the URL at the top of the browser and email us all back with it!
----- Original Message -----
From: DWise1@aol.com
To: billyjack1@hotmail.com
Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills
>>I  passed the state of california board of registration for professional and land surveyors located at 2535 capitol oaks drive suite 300 sactramento ca 95833-2926 will verify that I am a licensed mechanical engineer. i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers.<< Bill M, I still don't know what you are talking about.  I am sure that I had described it as you had described it to me.  Please tell me precisely which web page you are talking about.
----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:13:44 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:13:25 1900 Received: from gunsgalore (1Cust205.tnt1.huntington-beach2.ca.da.uu.net [63.17.32.205]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29837; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:13:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00e001c06477$8c3a7120$9320113f@com> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , References: <41.4bca501.2767dace@aol.com> Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 12:02:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D3_01C06433.612B20E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 ################################################ Subj: Re: 47 Date: 12/12/2000 18:19:52 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>I agree to teh terms set forth by this independent arbitrator. Do you Dave?<< Bill B? An "independent arbitrator"? Bill B? "independent"? You've got to be kidding! That's the second most ludicrous thing I've ever heard! [to borrow an old line from vaudeville, much used by Agent 86] Bill M, Bill B is your shill, your lackey! He has shown us that repeatedly. When I think of him, I keep picturing the General's "dog" in "The Postman" (excluding his having been "fixed", of course). Always tagging along behind you. Always backing you up in everything you do, no matter how evil. Yet unlike the character in the movie, I doubt whether Bill B would have the gumption to stand up for what is right and true. No, I just don't think he has it in him, though I've been wrong before. No, I'd have to be a total idiot to walk into a situation like that. I've seen kangaroo courts that were a lot fairer and impartial. Besides, playing the idiot is your specialty, Bill M. I wouldn't want to take that away from you, since you appear to treasure it so much. Also, the terms are totally unsatisfactory. First, what is this "prayer discussion" nonsense he threw in. Has absolutely nothing to do with the situation between us that we need to get resolved. Except maybe that in your overactive imagination you were hallucinating that you were on a jihad. But much more important is that there aren't any of the safeguards or guarantees that I need. Bill M, you don't listen and you keep twisting and distorting everything that I say, so I'm kept busy all the time having to remind you of what had actually been said. As a result, I need a completely accurate written transcript of EVERYTHING that is said, with the identity of each speaker clearly identified. Recording devices are inadequate, because they can garble and background noise or inarticulate speech can blot out the words. A stenographer would be even less adequate. I do not know how you are going to accomplish it, but a completely accurate written transcript is an absolute necessity. There are other provisions, such as the setting of the agenda, your abstaining from your "rabbit trails" and other diversionary tactics, including proselytizing. And you would have to lose that "idiot act" of yours as well. And we would need witnesses. Impartial witnesses, though I would want to see a number of your followers there, so that they can see what kind of a person their beloved Bill really is and what kind of terrible things he does when they are not looking. There, that should do for starters. ################################################ Subj: Re: 46 Date: 12/12/2000 18:20:57 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship.<< What "friendship"? None ever existed between us. You would never let it. "RE-bond"? One had to have bonded previously in order to be bonded again. Never happened. If you really want to establish a friendship, then you have to BE a friend. Stop being an adversary. Stop stereotyping me as one of your imaginary sparring partners. Stop evading my questions. Give up your "rabbit trails". Stop playing your idiotic games. You've already destroyed several times over any chance you could ever have of converting me, so stop with your proselytizing tricks. And stop evading discussion by insisting on Denny's. When the time is right, that can happen, but right now, with all the horrible things that you have done, the time is definitely not right. You are only making matters even worse by trying to force it. You have to rebuild all those bridges that you have burned, which has to start right here and right now. Before I could possibly trust you in person, I need to be able to trust you online. You can start by providing all the information we need to resolve the matter of your slanderous accusations against me. Provide that information freely and willingly. Honor all requests for clarification and more specific information promptly, freely, willingly, and honestly. Be willing and ready to discuss what we find. Promote the resolution process, do not hinder it. Oh, and Bill M, learn to LISTEN! And to READ WHAT IS WRITTEN! And to stop twisting and distorting everything that I say. There's a time and place for the imagination, but you really do need to learn to stick with reality when you are dealing with other people. Especially if you want them to be your friends. Show us here, online, consistently, that you can be a friend. Please log that as request number 44. And just think, once you are able to establish that you can be a friend, there won't be any need for us to maintain a log of your obstinance. Life will be much nicer for everybody. >>What do you mean your job is on a death march? Are they closing your department? Is the company closing?<< Really, Bill M! A self-professed history buff with an emphasis in WWII who doesn't know what a death march is? I am surprised at you! I think you've been a GS (or Navy contractor) for too long. A death march would be an extended forced march which left a trail of bodies in its wake. That term has been appropriated by engineering projects to describe the kind of accelerated development effort to meet a ridiculously short deadline. The accelerated pace of work, greatly extended work-weeks, and high stress tend to leave behind it a trail of burned-out engineers. >>What do you do?<< Software engineer. Embedded C mainly. >>I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a business. I have a great indea for a business Dave! With all of these football players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that will reduce them. I need capital though. Want to go in with me?<< No time. No money. Besides, I would hate to be associated with something so utterly useless: football. ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/12/2000 18:22:14 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billbeq@mediaone.net CC: billyjack1@hotmail.com, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of California. Retract your slanderous statements! << Excuse me, Bill B! I am trying to find out what Bill M is talking about so that I can correct the problem, if it does in fact exist. To my knowledge, I report his status on my web site accurately according to the information he himself had provided me years ago. If I am in error, then I will correct that error and apologize to him appropriately. But for me to be able to do that, I need to know what statement of mine that Bill M is refering to. To that end, AS YOU YOURSELF HAVE WITNESSED, I have requested that information from Bill M. As of the time of this writing, he had not yet provided me with that information. I await his informative response. Now, Bill B, what do YOU know about this? You have accused me of having made "slanderous statements". ON WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BASE THAT ACCUSATION? Have you seen the statements in question? In context? Have you yourself read what I had written and, BASED ON THAT READING, do you agree with Bill Morgan's assessment of it? If Bill M follows his standard form and refuses to provide me with the information we need to resolve this, are you ready and able to provide the necessary information? Frankly, I am very suspicious of these proceedings. I think that the two of you are trying to take the moral high-ground while diverting attention away from Bill M's slanderous malfeasance. I would hope that I am wrong, but I fear that I am right. While we are waiting for Bill M's response, let us consider some glaring differences between the two cases: 1. Supporting evidence: a. When I stated that Bill Morgan had made his accusations against me, I provided the ACTUAL TEXT of his accusatory statements, context, PLUS bibliographical information (eg, date and time of the message, plus where the messages could be found) so that anybody could go and read his accusatory statements for themselves. I presented all this information right up front without having to be asked for it. Furthermore, I have Bill Morgan's certification that he had indeed made those accusations. b. Bill Morgan has not provided any of that kind of information concerning his new accusation (sorry, but what else can I call it? We must hope that if this one also proves to be false that Bill M will handle it properly). Instead, he only stated: "By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?" BTW, that is the very first time I have heard anything about this problem. Perhaps you can explain how Bill M expects me to have already taken action on a problem that he hadn't even informed me of yet. Then when I asked him "Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that claim was made.", he failed to comply. Instead, he gave the address of the licensing agency (whatever relevance THAT is supposed to have to the question of what I had written) and said: "i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers." That, Bill B, is the very first indication I had that Bill M was talking about my web site. Now I have been able to ask him specifically which web page he is refering to, his response to which we are still awaiting. The difference: I provided specific and fairly complete evidence to support my claim that Bill Morgan had committed a serious of acts and to describe what those acts were. Bill Morgan did not provide any evidence, but merely made yet another unsupported accusation. 2. Actions of the Accused: a. When I informed Bill Morgan that I was challenging his accusations against and demanded that he substantiate them, he refused to. When I asked him to describe what I had written that he was basing his accusations on, he refused to provide that information. All he did was to repeat his accusations against me and to make new accusations. b. As you read above, the very first thing I did when Bill M made his new accusation was to ask for pertinent information so that I could find the offending statement. When Bill M failed to provide the information, as you read above, I asked again for pertinent information needed to identify the offending statement. If Bill M again fails to provide that information, I will request it yet again in my determination to arrive at the truth. At this point, you should see a familiar pattern forming. Just as before: i. Bill Morgan accuses me of having committed some very offensive act. ii. I try to get him to tell me what I was supposed to done. In all cases so far, every such act would have to have been written, so I seek sufficient information to identify the offending written statement. My stated intent for the requested information is so that I can go back and compare Bill M's version with what I had actually written; i.e, I want us to examine the facts. iii. Bill M refuses to provide the required information. Please note that the information resides solely in his memory and so is inaccessible except through him. iv. Bill B applauds Bill Morgan for having once again thwarted the truth. The difference: My actions have consistently been to seek further information so that the issue could be resolved. Bill Morgan's actions have consistently been to withhold vital information, thus preventing the issue from ever being resolved. 3. The severity of the offense: First, since the term "slander" has been used, let us consider its definition (The Merriam-Webster Dictionary): "a false statement maliciously uttered and intended to injure the reputation of a person." So for a false statement to be slanderous, it must have the effect of injuring the person's reputation. a. In the case of my alleged statements concerning Bill M's licensing, there could only be injury to his reputation if I were to have used it to cast doubt on his character or integrity (actually, most of his documented actions do that). I am absolutely positive that I had made no such statement. At the very worst that I can imagine (remember that at this point I still have no idea what Bill M is talking about), my statement would contain a factual inaccuracy. Hardly slander. b. Bill Morgan's accusatory statements against me are definitely meant to injury my reputation. He has accused me of such things as: i. Having conducted "bigoted attacks on [him] and [his] wife" ii. Thinking he is "some evil wicked person out to destroy society". iii. Thinking he is "wacked for beleiving in God". iv. "[P]ersonally insulting [him] on the level of a name calling 2nd grader." v. "[I]nsulting [his] wife and [him]. vi. That my wife and I had labelled him and his wife as evil. vii. Calling him "very nasty names." viii. That I had told him "what [my] wife thought of those who beleive in Gid". ix. That I would think he and his wife "are evil and wicked, the world's most sinister people". x. That I refuse to meet him because of his beliefs. Among other things. Each one of those accusations is a direct attack on my reputation. They most definitely meet the "injury to a person's reputation" criterion for being slanderous. Well, Bill B, there are the facts of this matter. And I am sure that you will yet again ignore them. ################################################ Subj: Re: Gods -- plural -- are awesome. Jewish Mythology bores me to tears = ) Date: 12/12/2000 18:23:39 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: billbeq@mediaone.net, DWise1 CC: editor@liberator.net >>I agree with Mark that dec 25th was picked to wipe out a pagan mythological celebration.<< Not quite, though certainly Christianity has a long history of assimilating pre-existing religions as it spread. Now, it is true that the Winter Solstice was a very important time of the year for pagans who worshipped the various forms of the Sun God, for it is the date of the rebirth of the Sun. In 273, Emperor Aurelianus declared an official Roman holiday, Sol Invictus (invincible sun, since that is what the Winter Solstice is about, the victory of the Sun over Darkness), which took place at the Winter Solstice. It is also true that pre-Constininian Christians chose this same time for their own celebrations, though we are not certain why. But therein lies the history question, which I had put to you before, Bill M (just as a trivia question with no theological significance). The Winter Solstice is on 21 December, just as it was when Julius Caesar instituted Rome's solar calendar around 48 BCE. We inherited that calendar from the Romans and still use it, though we now start the year a couple months earlier (*see footnote). So why is Christmas on 25 Dec and not 21 Dec? Wherever did they get "25" from? Well, Bill M? You're such a history buff. Do you know the answer? *FOOTNOTE: March used to be the first month of the year, which explains the number names of some of the months: September from septus, "seven" our ninth month October from octus, "eight" our tenth month November from novem, "nine" our eleventh month December from decus, "ten" our tenth month It also helps to explain why February, our second month and formerly the last month, has an irregular number of days, since it simply got all the days that were left over. ################################################ Subj: Regarding PE "Slander" Date: 12/12/2000 18:36:55 Pacific Standard Time From: DWise1 To: billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1, billbeq@mediaone.net CC: editor@liberator.net Uh, wait a minute there, Bill Morgan. It just occured to me. On 10 Dec, you wrote: "By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?" "DID [I] retract ..."! That statement says that you had written to me about this matter before! I have no recollection of any such message from you, Bill M. As far as I can tell, this is the very first time that you have raised this issue. How could I have already taken corrective action on something before having been informed of it? I may be good, Bill M, but I cannot read minds, no matter what my wife believes. When did you write to me about that, Bill M? Get that date as specific as you can! Regardless, you need to tell me EXACTLY which one(s) of my web pages contain(s) the offending statements concerning your PE license. Please copy and paste (you know how to do that now, Bill M, so no excuse!) the offending statement(s) to your email, identifying which web page each one came from, and tell me what the problem is with it/them. Then we can resolve this matter. We certainly would not want this to turn into yet another of your slanderous accusations, now would we? ################################################ Subj: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: 12/12/2000 22:55:10 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com CC: billyjack1@hotmail.com, DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net I demand a recount!!! The chads are hanging and the paper ballots are dimpled. -----Original Message----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: billbeq@mediaone.net Cc: billyjack1@hotmail.com ; DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net Date: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills >>>Bill Morgan is a Registered Professional Engineer in the State of California. Retract your slanderous statements! << > >Excuse me, Bill B! I am trying to find out what Bill M is talking about so that I can correct the problem, if it does in fact exist. To my knowledge, I report his status on my web site accurately according to the information he himself had provided me years ago. If I am in error, then I will correct that error and apologize to him appropriately. > >But for me to be able to do that, I need to know what statement of mine that Bill M is refering to. To that end, AS YOU YOURSELF HAVE WITNESSED, I have requested that information from Bill M. As of the time of this writing, he had not yet provided me with that information. I await his informative response. > > >Now, Bill B, what do YOU know about this? You have accused me of having made "slanderous statements". ON WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU BASE THAT ACCUSATION? Have you seen the statements in question? In context? Have you yourself read what I had written and, BASED ON THAT READING, do you agree with Bill Morgan's assessment of it? If Bill M follows his standard form and refuses to provide me with the information we need to resolve this, are you ready and able to provide the necessary information? > >Frankly, I am very suspicious of these proceedings. I think that the two of you are trying to take the moral high-ground while diverting attention away from Bill M's slanderous malfeasance. I would hope that I am wrong, but I fear that I am right. > >While we are waiting for Bill M's response, let us consider some glaring differences between the two cases: > >1. Supporting evidence: >a. When I stated that Bill Morgan had made his accusations against me, I provided the ACTUAL TEXT of his accusatory statements, context, PLUS bibliographical information (eg, date and time of the message, plus where the messages could be found) so that anybody could go and read his accusatory statements for themselves. I presented all this information right up front without having to be asked for it. Furthermore, I have Bill Morgan's certification that he had indeed made those accusations. > >b. Bill Morgan has not provided any of that kind of information concerning his new accusation (sorry, but what else can I call it? We must hope that if this one also proves to be false that Bill M will handle it properly). Instead, he only stated: > >"By the way, did you retract your claim about my being a registered Licensed Professional Mechanical Engineer in the State of California?" > >BTW, that is the very first time I have heard anything about this problem. Perhaps you can explain how Bill M expects me to have already taken action on a problem that he hadn't even informed me of yet. > >Then when I asked him "Whatever are you talking about? Please describe SPECIFICALLY where that claim was made.", he failed to comply. Instead, he gave the address of the licensing agency (whatever relevance THAT is supposed to have to the question of what I had written) and said: >"i demand you retract your web site that mentions never having heard of licensed mechanical engineers." >That, Bill B, is the very first indication I had that Bill M was talking about my web site. Now I have been able to ask him specifically which web page he is refering to, his response to which we are still awaiting. > >The difference: >I provided specific and fairly complete evidence to support my claim that Bill Morgan had committed a serious of acts and to describe what those acts were. Bill Morgan did not provide any evidence, but merely made yet another unsupported accusation. > > >2. Actions of the Accused: >a. When I informed Bill Morgan that I was challenging his accusations against and demanded that he substantiate them, he refused to. When I asked him to describe what I had written that he was basing his accusations on, he refused to provide that information. All he did was to repeat his accusations against me and to make new accusations. > >b. As you read above, the very first thing I did when Bill M made his new accusation was to ask for pertinent information so that I could find the offending statement. When Bill M failed to provide the information, as you read above, I asked again for pertinent information needed to identify the offending statement. If Bill M again fails to provide that information, I will request it yet again in my determination to arrive at the truth. > >At this point, you should see a familiar pattern forming. Just as before: > i. Bill Morgan accuses me of having committed some very offensive act. > ii. I try to get him to tell me what I was supposed to done. In all cases so far, every such act would have to have been written, so I seek sufficient information to identify the offending written statement. My stated intent for the requested information is so that I can go back and compare Bill M's version with what I had actually written; i.e, I want us to examine the facts. > iii. Bill M refuses to provide the required information. Please note that the information resides solely in his memory and so is inaccessible except through him. > iv. Bill B applauds Bill Morgan for having once again thwarted the truth. > >The difference: >My actions have consistently been to seek further information so that the issue could be resolved. Bill Morgan's actions have consistently been to withhold vital information, thus preventing the issue from ever being resolved. > > >3. The severity of the offense: > >First, since the term "slander" has been used, let us consider its definition (The Merriam-Webster Dictionary): "a false statement maliciously uttered and intended to injure the reputation of a person." So for a false statement to be slanderous, it must have the effect of injuring the person's reputation. > >a. In the case of my alleged statements concerning Bill M's licensing, there could only be injury to his reputation if I were to have used it to cast doubt on his character or integrity (actually, most of his documented actions do that). I am absolutely positive that I had made no such statement. At the very worst that I can imagine (remember that at this point I still have no idea what Bill M is talking about), my statement would contain a factual inaccuracy. Hardly slander. > >b. Bill Morgan's accusatory statements against me are definitely meant to injury my reputation. He has accused me of such things as: > i. Having conducted "bigoted attacks on [him] and [his] wife" > ii. Thinking he is "some evil wicked person out to destroy society". > iii. Thinking he is "wacked for beleiving in God". > iv. "[P]ersonally insulting [him] on the level of a name calling 2nd grader." > v. "[I]nsulting [his] wife and [him]. > vi. That my wife and I had labelled him and his wife as evil. > vii. Calling him "very nasty names." > viii. That I had told him "what [my] wife thought of those who beleive in Gid". > ix. That I would think he and his wife "are evil and wicked, the world's most sinister people". > x. That I refuse to meet him because of his beliefs. >Among other things. Each one of those accusations is a direct attack on my reputation. They most definitely meet the "injury to a person's reputation" criterion for being slanderous. > > > >Well, Bill B, there are the facts of this matter. And I am sure that you will yet again ignore them. > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (rly-yh02.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.34]) by air-yh01.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:55:09 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yh02.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:54:00 -0500 Received: from wb (we-24-130-113-13.we.mediaone.net [24.130.113.13]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12788; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:53:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000a01c064d1$d7c79e60$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: Cc: , , Subject: Re: Saturnalia Gift Idea for the Two Bills Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:56:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 ################################################ Subj: Re: 46 Date: 12/12/2000 22:56:29 Pacific Standard Time From: billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette) To: DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com CC: DWise1@aol.com, editor@liberator.net SHAME SHAME SHAME! To smite one trying to reach out is a sad day indeed. Bill Morgan is trying to be friendly and you slap him in the face with your glove!!! SHAME!!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: DWise1@aol.com To: billyjack1@hotmail.com Cc: billbeq@mediaone.net ; DWise1@aol.com ; editor@liberator.net Date: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 6:22 PM Subject: Re: 46 >>>The truth is I want to meet face to face and rebond our friendship.<< > >What "friendship"? None ever existed between us. You would never let it. "RE-bond"? One had to have bonded previously in order to be bonded again. Never happened. > >If you really want to establish a friendship, then you have to BE a friend. Stop being an adversary. Stop stereotyping me as one of your imaginary sparring partners. Stop evading my questions. Give up your "rabbit trails". Stop playing your idiotic games. You've already destroyed several times over any chance you could ever have of converting me, so stop with your proselytizing tricks. And stop evading discussion by insisting on Denny's. When the time is right, that can happen, but right now, with all the horrible things that you have done, the time is definitely not right. You are only making matters even worse by trying to force it. > >You have to rebuild all those bridges that you have burned, which has to start right here and right now. Before I could possibly trust you in person, I need to be able to trust you online. You can start by providing all the information we need to resolve the matter of your slanderous accusations against me. Provide that information freely and willingly. Honor all requests for clarification and more specific information promptly, freely, willingly, and honestly. Be willing and ready to discuss what we find. Promote the resolution process, do not hinder it. > >Oh, and Bill M, learn to LISTEN! And to READ WHAT IS WRITTEN! And to stop twisting and distorting everything that I say. There's a time and place for the imagination, but you really do need to learn to stick with reality when you are dealing with other people. Especially if you want them to be your friends. > >Show us here, online, consistently, that you can be a friend. > >Please log that as request number 44. And just think, once you are able to establish that you can be a friend, there won't be any need for us to maintain a log of your obstinance. Life will be much nicer for everybody. > > >>>What do you mean your job is on a death march? Are they closing your department? Is the company closing?<< > >Really, Bill M! A self-professed history buff with an emphasis in WWII who doesn't know what a death march is? I am surprised at you! I think you've been a GS (or Navy contractor) for too long. > >A death march would be an extended forced march which left a trail of bodies in its wake. That term has been appropriated by engineering projects to describe the kind of accelerated development effort to meet a ridiculously short deadline. The accelerated pace of work, greatly extended work-weeks, and high stress tend to leave behind it a trail of burned-out engineers. > >>>What do you do?<< > >Software engineer. Embedded C mainly. > >>>I amy be laid off too maybe we could forma partnership and start a business. I have a great indea for a business Dave! With all of these football players getting concussions, I have a design of a football helmet that will reduce them. I need capital though. Want to go in with me?<< > >No time. No money. Besides, I would hate to be associated with something so utterly useless: football. > > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb01.mx.aol.com (rly-yb01.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.1]) by air-yb02.mail.aol.com (v77.14) with ESMTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:56:29 -0500 Received: from lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (lsmls01.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.20]) by rly-yb01.mx.aol.com (v77.27) with ESMTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 01:55:24 -0500 Received: from wb (we-24-130-113-13.we.mediaone.net [24.130.113.13]) by lsmls01.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13715; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:55:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01c064d2$0992cfa0$0d718218@wb.we.mediaone.net> From: "Bill Bequette" To: , Cc: , Subject: Re: 46 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:58:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 ################################################