################################################

Subj:	 Re: fish heads
Date:	02/05/2001 15:15:11 Pacific Standard Time
From:	spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark)
To:	billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan)
CC:	DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill B)

Bill:

Since you are no longer interested in carrying out an honest, open debate, I
am placing you on my ignore list with your buddy Bill B.  Both of you can
have a nice life.

Mark
The Liberator
E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
Web Site: http://liberator.net/

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: fish heads


What about this orange tree we have in our back yard that keeps sprouting
oranges?

IF food appears from the ground thats no biggy?

Your buddy who disagrees with you, yet is your buddy,
Bill


>From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
>To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: fish heads
>Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:51 -0600
>
>Bill:
>
>If your food falls from the sky for no apparent reason, see a doctor.
>
>= )
>
>Mark
>The Liberator
>E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
>Web Site: http://liberator.net/
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
>To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
>Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:07 PM
>Subject: fish heads
>
>
>Is there logic to faith?  Good question, let me tell you a parable and you
>answer.
>
>Two fish are swimming in their aquarium and talking.
>
>Fish one says "man are we lucky...we just happened to have this stuff
>called
>water to swim in....we just happen to have that filter in the corner to
>keep
>our water clean....and best of all we just happen to have food appear from
>above and it drops in front of our fishy faces twice a day...man are we
>lucky!
>
>The second fish ponders this comment and says "I have been thinking about
>this as well.  My best explanation is that all of this is not luck, but
>something intelligent outside our tank cares about us and is taking care of
>us. i don't know exactly who it is, but someone is."
>
>Fish one replies "Prove it!  Show him to me!  Thats faith!  If you can't
>show me this care taker's face I won't beleive it!"
>
>Fish two says: "Yes I admit I have faith.  Yes I admit I can not show you
>his face.  But I feel it is logical, rational, and requires less faith to
>beleive our little tank is the result of plan, purpose and intelligence
>than
>the luck that you say it."
>
>Fish one:  "Don't feed me that religious stuff, if you can't show me the
>caretaker's face I am not going to believe it."
>
>Fish two: "Believe whatever you want its a free aquarium."
>
>Moral of the story, fish two's faith is rational, logical and sound.
>
> >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
> >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:34:03 -0600
> >
> >Bill Morgan, you wrote:
> >"You can worship Hitler if you want to but anyone with a funny moustache
> >like that is not worthy to be praised.  Gahndi was played in a movie by
>an
> >Englishman, what kind of humiliation is that to the Indians?"
> >
> >What does that have to do with my question that you refuse to answer? --
> >'Is
> >there any logic to faith?'
> >
> >Mark
> >The Liberator
> >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> >
> > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
> > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:15:05 -0600
> > >
> > ><<I wrote in my previous letter: "Bill, since I answered one of your
> > >questions, answer one of mine: 'Is there any logic to faith?'"  Bill,
>you
> > >had no response.  If you are a real engineer Bill, that question would
>be
> > >very easy for you.>>
> > >
> > >Until you answer my question -- which you have dodged twice now -- I
>will
> > >not answer your questions.
> > >
> > >Mark Liberator
> > >The Liberator
> > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > >Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:13 AM
> > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > >
> > >
> > >Again you begged the question.
> > >
> > >Who died for a leprachun?
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > > >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:24:59 -0600
> > > >
> > > >Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, you wrote:
> > > >"We have hammered [individual freewill vs an all-knowing God] to
>death.
> > >If
> > > >God programmed people, why did he get angrytwtihthem (Read Exodus and
> > > >Isaiah)."
> > > >
> > > >Anger is yet another sign that the Christian God must be flawed.
>Nice
> > > >point.
> > > >
> > > >"Histroy does not teach of of leprchan martyrs but history tells us
>of
> > > >thousands of martyrs for Jesus."
> > > >
> > > >History teaches us that a lot of people died for Hitler too.  Should
>we
> > > >worship him?  History shows that a lot of people risked their lives
>for
> > > >Gandhi.  Should we worship him as if he was a God?
> > > >
> > > >"Not at all.  I usse science to explain the existance of a supreme
> > > >creator...and he is revealed in the Bible."
> > > >
> > > >You do not use science at all and if you were a real engineer, you
> >would
> > > >know this.  Science is based on observation.  Using the Bible as
> >evidence
> > > >while trying to pass yourself off as an engineer says that either
> >you're
> > > >ignorant or you're a calculating charlatan.  Which is it?
> > > >
> > > >"But you are using the bible for your points, thus you should use to
>it
> > > >justify your points."
> > > >
> > > >I use the Bible to discredit it, which is always quite easily done.
> >The
> > > >Bible contains numerous inconsistencies, which makes it the work of
> > >flawed
> > > >beings, not unlike any other book created by man.
> > > >
> > > >Instead of getting wrapped up in the soap opera, I like to use the
> > > >fundamental principles that are entertained in the Bible and then
>using
> > > >them
> > > >to show errors.
> > > >
> > > >Besides, educated Christians believe that the Bible is not a work to
>be
> > > >taken literally.  It is a work that uses fantasy to hammer through
> > >behavior
> > > >patterns.
> > > >
> > > >"Now we are making progress.  3 points, the bible teaches [1] the
> > >universe
> > > >had a beginning, [2] there was a global flood, [3] the earth rests on
> > > >nothing Job 26:7 and the world will have a one world government.  Is
> >that
> > > >good proof."
> > > >
> > > >Once again Bill, if you were really an engineer, you would realize
>that
> > > >making unsupported statements is not science.  [1] There are many
> > >theories
> > > >to explain what happened before the big bang but none of them can be
> > > >supported scientifically.  [2] Global flood?  Do you believe in
>Noah's
> > >Ark
> > > >too?  I suppose you believe in Santa Clause as well?  [3] One can
>pick
> > >out
> > > >many vague reference in the Bible to support a number of things.
> >What's
> > > >your point?  Again Bill, how is using the Bible to support your
> >God-model
> > > >an
> > > >act of 'science'?
> > > >
> > > >I wrote in my previous letter:
> > > >"Bill, since I answered one of your questions, answer one of mine:
>'Is
> > > >there
> > > >any logic to faith?'"
> > > >
> > > >Bill, you had no response.  If you are a real engineer Bill, that
> > >question
> > > >would be very easy for you.
> > > >
> > > >Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >The Liberator
> > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> > > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com






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From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
Cc: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
References: <F102NcA6oDEz0PuTZgX00004cf0@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fish heads
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:17:37 -0600
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################################################

Subj:	 Re: fish heads
Date:	02/05/2001 15:19:08 Pacific Standard Time
From:	billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan)
To:	spambuster@gigagod.com
CC:	DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net

wAIT, MY POINT WAS SERIOUS...FOOD FALLING FROM HEAVEN IS RIDICULOUS YET FOOD 
GROWING FROM THE GROUND IS???????

MAYBE AN AWEWOME WORK FROM A LOVING GOD?  PERHAPS?  MAYBE?

>From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
>To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
>CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: fish heads
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:17:37 -0600
>
>Bill:
>
>Since you are no longer interested in carrying out an honest, open debate, 
>I
>am placing you on my ignore list with your buddy Bill B.  Both of you can
>have a nice life.
>
>Mark
>The Liberator
>E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
>Web Site: http://liberator.net/
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
>To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
>Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:08 AM
>Subject: Re: fish heads
>
>
>What about this orange tree we have in our back yard that keeps sprouting
>oranges?
>
>IF food appears from the ground thats no biggy?
>
>Your buddy who disagrees with you, yet is your buddy,
>Bill
>
>
> >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: fish heads
> >Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:51 -0600
> >
> >Bill:
> >
> >If your food falls from the sky for no apparent reason, see a doctor.
> >
> >= )
> >
> >Mark
> >The Liberator
> >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:07 PM
> >Subject: fish heads
> >
> >
> >Is there logic to faith?  Good question, let me tell you a parable and 
>you
> >answer.
> >
> >Two fish are swimming in their aquarium and talking.
> >
> >Fish one says "man are we lucky...we just happened to have this stuff
> >called
> >water to swim in....we just happen to have that filter in the corner to
> >keep
> >our water clean....and best of all we just happen to have food appear 
>from
> >above and it drops in front of our fishy faces twice a day...man are we
> >lucky!
> >
> >The second fish ponders this comment and says "I have been thinking about
> >this as well.  My best explanation is that all of this is not luck, but
> >something intelligent outside our tank cares about us and is taking care 
>of
> >us. i don't know exactly who it is, but someone is."
> >
> >Fish one replies "Prove it!  Show him to me!  Thats faith!  If you can't
> >show me this care taker's face I won't beleive it!"
> >
> >Fish two says: "Yes I admit I have faith.  Yes I admit I can not show you
> >his face.  But I feel it is logical, rational, and requires less faith to
> >beleive our little tank is the result of plan, purpose and intelligence
> >than
> >the luck that you say it."
> >
> >Fish one:  "Don't feed me that religious stuff, if you can't show me the
> >caretaker's face I am not going to believe it."
> >
> >Fish two: "Believe whatever you want its a free aquarium."
> >
> >Moral of the story, fish two's faith is rational, logical and sound.
> >
> > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
> > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:34:03 -0600
> > >
> > >Bill Morgan, you wrote:
> > >"You can worship Hitler if you want to but anyone with a funny 
>moustache
> > >like that is not worthy to be praised.  Gahndi was played in a movie by
> >an
> > >Englishman, what kind of humiliation is that to the Indians?"
> > >
> > >What does that have to do with my question that you refuse to answer? 
>--
> > >'Is
> > >there any logic to faith?'
> > >
> > >Mark
> > >The Liberator
> > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> > >
> > > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > > >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
> > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > > >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:15:05 -0600
> > > >
> > > ><<I wrote in my previous letter: "Bill, since I answered one of your
> > > >questions, answer one of mine: 'Is there any logic to faith?'"  Bill,
> >you
> > > >had no response.  If you are a real engineer Bill, that question 
>would
> >be
> > > >very easy for you.>>
> > > >
> > > >Until you answer my question -- which you have dodged twice now -- I
> >will
> > > >not answer your questions.
> > > >
> > > >Mark Liberator
> > > >The Liberator
> > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > > >Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:13 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Again you begged the question.
> > > >
> > > >Who died for a leprachun?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
> > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
> > > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
> > > > >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:24:59 -0600
> > > > >
> > > > >Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, you wrote:
> > > > >"We have hammered [individual freewill vs an all-knowing God] to
> >death.
> > > >If
> > > > >God programmed people, why did he get angrytwtihthem (Read Exodus 
>and
> > > > >Isaiah)."
> > > > >
> > > > >Anger is yet another sign that the Christian God must be flawed.
> >Nice
> > > > >point.
> > > > >
> > > > >"Histroy does not teach of of leprchan martyrs but history tells us
> >of
> > > > >thousands of martyrs for Jesus."
> > > > >
> > > > >History teaches us that a lot of people died for Hitler too.  
>Should
> >we
> > > > >worship him?  History shows that a lot of people risked their lives
> >for
> > > > >Gandhi.  Should we worship him as if he was a God?
> > > > >
> > > > >"Not at all.  I usse science to explain the existance of a supreme
> > > > >creator...and he is revealed in the Bible."
> > > > >
> > > > >You do not use science at all and if you were a real engineer, you
> > >would
> > > > >know this.  Science is based on observation.  Using the Bible as
> > >evidence
> > > > >while trying to pass yourself off as an engineer says that either
> > >you're
> > > > >ignorant or you're a calculating charlatan.  Which is it?
> > > > >
> > > > >"But you are using the bible for your points, thus you should use 
>to
> >it
> > > > >justify your points."
> > > > >
> > > > >I use the Bible to discredit it, which is always quite easily done.
> > >The
> > > > >Bible contains numerous inconsistencies, which makes it the work of
> > > >flawed
> > > > >beings, not unlike any other book created by man.
> > > > >
> > > > >Instead of getting wrapped up in the soap opera, I like to use the
> > > > >fundamental principles that are entertained in the Bible and then
> >using
> > > > >them
> > > > >to show errors.
> > > > >
> > > > >Besides, educated Christians believe that the Bible is not a work 
>to
> >be
> > > > >taken literally.  It is a work that uses fantasy to hammer through
> > > >behavior
> > > > >patterns.
> > > > >
> > > > >"Now we are making progress.  3 points, the bible teaches [1] the
> > > >universe
> > > > >had a beginning, [2] there was a global flood, [3] the earth rests 
>on
> > > > >nothing Job 26:7 and the world will have a one world government.  
>Is
> > >that
> > > > >good proof."
> > > > >
> > > > >Once again Bill, if you were really an engineer, you would realize
> >that
> > > > >making unsupported statements is not science.  [1] There are many
> > > >theories
> > > > >to explain what happened before the big bang but none of them can 
>be
> > > > >supported scientifically.  [2] Global flood?  Do you believe in
> >Noah's
> > > >Ark
> > > > >too?  I suppose you believe in Santa Clause as well?  [3] One can
> >pick
> > > >out
> > > > >many vague reference in the Bible to support a number of things.
> > >What's
> > > > >your point?  Again Bill, how is using the Bible to support your
> > >God-model
> > > > >an
> > > > >act of 'science'?
> > > > >
> > > > >I wrote in my previous letter:
> > > > >"Bill, since I answered one of your questions, answer one of mine:
> >'Is
> > > > >there
> > > > >any logic to faith?'"
> > > > >
> > > > >Bill, you had no response.  If you are a real engineer Bill, that
> > > >question
> > > > >would be very easy for you.
> > > > >
> > > > >Mark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >The Liberator
> > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
> > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >_________________________________________________________________
> > > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




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From: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
To: spambuster@gigagod.com
Cc: DWise1@aol.com, billbeq@mediaone.net
Subject: Re: fish heads
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:18:36 
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################################################

Subj:	 Re: fish heads
Date:	02/05/2001 15:21:53 Pacific Standard Time
From:	billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette)
To:	spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark), billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan)
CC:	DWise1@aol.com

Thanks Mark!!! JESUS loves you :)  I pray that you find the Lord before Satan
finds you!
Sincerely,
                Bill B. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mark 
  To: Bill Morgan 
  Cc: DWise1@aol.com ; Bill B 
  Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:17 PM
  Subject: Re: fish heads


  Bill:

  Since you are no longer interested in carrying out an honest, open debate,
I
  am placing you on my ignore list with your buddy Bill B.  Both of you can
  have a nice life.

  Mark
  The Liberator
  E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
  Web Site: http://liberator.net/

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 5:08 AM
  Subject: Re: fish heads


  What about this orange tree we have in our back yard that keeps sprouting
  oranges?

  IF food appears from the ground thats no biggy?

  Your buddy who disagrees with you, yet is your buddy,
  Bill


  >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  >Subject: Re: fish heads
  >Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:51 -0600
  >
  >Bill:
  >
  >If your food falls from the sky for no apparent reason, see a doctor.
  >
  >= )
  >
  >Mark
  >The Liberator
  >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
  >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
  >
  >----- Original Message -----
  >From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  >Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:07 PM
  >Subject: fish heads
  >
  >
  >Is there logic to faith?  Good question, let me tell you a parable and you
  >answer.
  >
  >Two fish are swimming in their aquarium and talking.
  >
  >Fish one says "man are we lucky...we just happened to have this stuff
  >called
  >water to swim in....we just happen to have that filter in the corner to
  >keep
  >our water clean....and best of all we just happen to have food appear from
  >above and it drops in front of our fishy faces twice a day...man are we
  >lucky!
  >
  >The second fish ponders this comment and says "I have been thinking about
  >this as well.  My best explanation is that all of this is not luck, but
  >something intelligent outside our tank cares about us and is taking care
of
  >us. i don't know exactly who it is, but someone is."
  >
  >Fish one replies "Prove it!  Show him to me!  Thats faith!  If you can't
  >show me this care taker's face I won't beleive it!"
  >
  >Fish two says: "Yes I admit I have faith.  Yes I admit I can not show you
  >his face.  But I feel it is logical, rational, and requires less faith to
  >beleive our little tank is the result of plan, purpose and intelligence
  >than
  >the luck that you say it."
  >
  >Fish one:  "Don't feed me that religious stuff, if you can't show me the
  >caretaker's face I am not going to believe it."
  >
  >Fish two: "Believe whatever you want its a free aquarium."
  >
  >Moral of the story, fish two's faith is rational, logical and sound.
  >
  > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  > >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
  > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
  > >Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:34:03 -0600
  > >
  > >Bill Morgan, you wrote:
  > >"You can worship Hitler if you want to but anyone with a funny moustache
  > >like that is not worthy to be praised.  Gahndi was played in a movie by
  >an
  > >Englishman, what kind of humiliation is that to the Indians?"
  > >
  > >What does that have to do with my question that you refuse to answer? --
  > >'Is
  > >there any logic to faith?'
  > >
  > >Mark
  > >The Liberator
  > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
  > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
  > >
  > > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  > > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  > > >CC: <DWise1@aol.com>, "Bill B" <billbeq@mediaone.net>
  > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
  > > >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:15:05 -0600
  > > >
  > > ><<I wrote in my previous letter: "Bill, since I answered one of your
  > > >questions, answer one of mine: 'Is there any logic to faith?'"  Bill,
  >you
  > > >had no response.  If you are a real engineer Bill, that question would
  >be
  > > >very easy for you.>>
  > > >
  > > >Until you answer my question -- which you have dodged twice now -- I
  >will
  > > >not answer your questions.
  > > >
  > > >Mark Liberator
  > > >The Liberator
  > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
  > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
  > > >
  > > >----- Original Message -----
  > > >From: Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  > > >To: <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  > > >Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:13 AM
  > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >Again you begged the question.
  > > >
  > > >Who died for a leprachun?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > >From: "Mark" <spambuster@gigagod.com>
  > > > >To: "Bill Morgan" <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
  > > > >Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
  > > > >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:24:59 -0600
  > > > >
  > > > >Bill Morgan <billyjack1@hotmail.com>, you wrote:
  > > > >"We have hammered [individual freewill vs an all-knowing God] to
  >death.
  > > >If
  > > > >God programmed people, why did he get angrytwtihthem (Read Exodus
and
  > > > >Isaiah)."
  > > > >
  > > > >Anger is yet another sign that the Christian God must be flawed.
  >Nice
  > > > >point.
  > > > >
  > > > >"Histroy does not teach of of leprchan martyrs but history tells us
  >of
  > > > >thousands of martyrs for Jesus."
  > > > >
  > > > >History teaches us that a lot of people died for Hitler too.  Should
  >we
  > > > >worship him?  History shows that a lot of people risked their lives
  >for
  > > > >Gandhi.  Should we worship him as if he was a God?
  > > > >
  > > > >"Not at all.  I usse science to explain the existance of a supreme
  > > > >creator...and he is revealed in the Bible."
  > > > >
  > > > >You do not use science at all and if you were a real engineer, you
  > >would
  > > > >know this.  Science is based on observation.  Using the Bible as
  > >evidence
  > > > >while trying to pass yourself off as an engineer says that either
  > >you're
  > > > >ignorant or you're a calculating charlatan.  Which is it?
  > > > >
  > > > >"But you are using the bible for your points, thus you should use to
  >it
  > > > >justify your points."
  > > > >
  > > > >I use the Bible to discredit it, which is always quite easily done.
  > >The
  > > > >Bible contains numerous inconsistencies, which makes it the work of
  > > >flawed
  > > > >beings, not unlike any other book created by man.
  > > > >
  > > > >Instead of getting wrapped up in the soap opera, I like to use the
  > > > >fundamental principles that are entertained in the Bible and then
  >using
  > > > >them
  > > > >to show errors.
  > > > >
  > > > >Besides, educated Christians believe that the Bible is not a work to
  >be
  > > > >taken literally.  It is a work that uses fantasy to hammer through
  > > >behavior
  > > > >patterns.
  > > > >
  > > > >"Now we are making progress.  3 points, the bible teaches [1] the
  > > >universe
  > > > >had a beginning, [2] there was a global flood, [3] the earth rests
on
  > > > >nothing Job 26:7 and the world will have a one world government.  Is
  > >that
  > > > >good proof."
  > > > >
  > > > >Once again Bill, if you were really an engineer, you would realize
  >that
  > > > >making unsupported statements is not science.  [1] There are many
  > > >theories
  > > > >to explain what happened before the big bang but none of them can be
  > > > >supported scientifically.  [2] Global flood?  Do you believe in
  >Noah's
  > > >Ark
  > > > >too?  I suppose you believe in Santa Clause as well?  [3] One can
  >pick
  > > >out
  > > > >many vague reference in the Bible to support a number of things.
  > >What's
  > > > >your point?  Again Bill, how is using the Bible to support your
  > >God-model
  > > > >an
  > > > >act of 'science'?
  > > > >
  > > > >I wrote in my previous letter:
  > > > >"Bill, since I answered one of your questions, answer one of mine:
  >'Is
  > > > >there
  > > > >any logic to faith?'"
  > > > >
  > > > >Bill, you had no response.  If you are a real engineer Bill, that
  > > >question
  > > > >would be very easy for you.
  > > > >
  > > > >Mark
  > > > >
  > > > >
  > > > >The Liberator
  > > > >E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
  > > > >Web Site: http://liberator.net/
  > > > >
  > > >
  > > >_________________________________________________________________
  > > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > >
  > >_________________________________________________________________
  > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
  > >
  > >
  > >
  >
  >_________________________________________________________________
  >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
  >
  >
  >

  _________________________________________________________________
  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




--------------------
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<DIV>Thanks Mark!!! JESUS loves you :)&nbsp; I pray that you find 
the Lord before Satan finds you!</DIV>
<DIV>Sincerely,</DIV>

<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

Bill B.&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
  Mark 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">To: Bill Morgan </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Cc: DWise1@aol.com ; Bill B 
</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:17 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Subject: Re: fish heads</DIV>
  <DIV>
</DIV>Bill:

Since you are no longer interested in carrying out   an honest, open debate,
I
am placing you on my ignore list with your buddy   Bill B.&nbsp; Both of you
can
have a nice life.

Mark
The   Liberator
E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
Web Site: http://liberator.net/

----- Original   Message -----
From: Bill Morgan &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
To:   &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
Sent:   Monday, February 05, 2001 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: fish heads


What   about this orange tree we have in our back yard that keeps   sprouting
oranges?

IF food appears from the ground thats no   biggy?

Your buddy who disagrees with you, yet is your   buddy,
Bill


&gt;From: "Mark" &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
&gt;To:   "Bill Morgan" &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
&gt;Subject:   Re: fish heads
&gt;Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:40:51   -0600
&gt;
&gt;Bill:
&gt;
&gt;If your food falls from the sky for   no apparent reason, see a doctor.
&gt;
&gt;=   )
&gt;
&gt;Mark
&gt;The Liberator
&gt;E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
&gt;Web Site:   http://liberator.net/
&gt;
&gt;-----   Original Message -----
&gt;From: Bill Morgan &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
&gt;To:   &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
&gt;Sent:   Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:07 PM
&gt;Subject: fish   heads
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Is there logic to faith?&nbsp; Good question, let    me tell you a
parable and you
&gt;answer.
&gt;
&gt;Two fish are   swimming in their aquarium and talking.
&gt;
&gt;Fish one says "man are   we lucky...we just happened to have this stuff
&gt;called
&gt;water to   swim in....we just happen to have that filter in the corner
to
&gt;keep
&gt;our water clean....and best of all we just happen to   have food appear
from
&gt;above and it drops in front of our fishy faces   twice a day...man are we
&gt;lucky!
&gt;
&gt;The second fish ponders   this comment and says "I have been thinking
about
&gt;this as well.&nbsp;   My best explanation is that all of this is not
luck, but
&gt;something   intelligent outside our tank cares about us and is taking
care of
&gt;us. i   don't know exactly who it is, but someone is."
&gt;
&gt;Fish one replies   "Prove it!&nbsp; Show him to me!&nbsp; Thats
faith!&nbsp; If you   can't
&gt;show me this care taker's face I won't beleive   it!"
&gt;
&gt;Fish two says: "Yes I admit I have faith.&nbsp; Yes I   admit I can not
show you
&gt;his face.&nbsp; But I feel it is logical,   rational, and requires less
faith to
&gt;beleive our little tank is the   result of plan, purpose and intelligence
&gt;than
&gt;the luck that you   say it."
&gt;
&gt;Fish one:&nbsp; "Don't feed me that religious stuff,   if you can't show
me the
&gt;caretaker's face I am not going to believe   it."
&gt;
&gt;Fish two: "Believe whatever you want its a free   aquarium."
&gt;
&gt;Moral of the story, fish two's faith is rational,   logical and sound.
&gt;
&gt; &gt;From: "Mark" &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt;To: "Bill Morgan" &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt;CC: &lt;DWise1@aol.com&gt;, "Bill B"
&lt;billbeq@mediaone.net&gt;
&gt;   &gt;Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
&gt; &gt;Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:34:03   -0600
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Bill Morgan, you wrote:
&gt; &gt;"You can   worship Hitler if you want to but anyone with a funny
moustache
&gt;   &gt;like that is not worthy to be praised.&nbsp; Gahndi was played in
a movie   by
&gt;an
&gt; &gt;Englishman, what kind of humiliation is that to the   Indians?"
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;What does that have to do with my question   that you refuse to
answer? --
&gt; &gt;'Is
&gt; &gt;there any logic to   faith?'
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;Mark
&gt; &gt;The Liberator
&gt;   &gt;E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
&gt; &gt;Web   Site: http://liberator.net/
&gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;From: "Mark" &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt;To: "Bill Morgan" &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt;CC: &lt;DWise1@aol.com&gt;, "Bill   B"
&lt;billbeq@mediaone.net&gt;
&gt; &gt;   &gt;Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
&gt; &gt; &gt;Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001   09:15:05 -0600
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;&lt;&lt;I wrote in my   previous letter: "Bill, since I
answered one of your
&gt; &gt;   &gt;questions, answer one of mine: 'Is there any logic to
faith?'"&nbsp;   Bill,
&gt;you
&gt; &gt; &gt;had no response.&nbsp; If you are a real   engineer Bill, that
question would
&gt;be
&gt; &gt; &gt;very easy for   you.&gt;&gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Until you answer my question   -- which you have dodged twice
now -- I
&gt;will
&gt; &gt; &gt;not   answer your questions.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Mark   Liberator
&gt; &gt; &gt;The Liberator
&gt; &gt; &gt;E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
&gt; &gt;   &gt;Web Site: http://liberator.net/
&gt; &gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;----- Original Message -----
&gt; &gt; &gt;From: Bill   Morgan &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt;To: &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt;Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:13 AM
&gt; &gt; &gt;Subject: Re:   Myth Conceptions
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Again   you begged the question.
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;Who died for a   leprachun?
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;From:   "Mark" &lt;spambuster@gigagod.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt; &gt;To: "Bill Morgan" &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt; &gt;Subject: Re: Myth Conceptions
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Date: Mon,   15 Jan 2001 08:24:59 -0600
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Bill   Morgan &lt;billyjack1@hotmail.com&gt;, you   wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;"We have hammered [individual freewill vs an   all-knowing
God] to
&gt;death.
&gt; &gt; &gt;If
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;God programmed people, why did he get angrytwtihthem
(Read Exodus   and
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Isaiah)."
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;Anger is yet another sign that the Christian God must be
flawed.
&gt;Nice
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;point.
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;"Histroy does not teach of of leprchan martyrs but
history tells us
&gt;of
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;thousands of martyrs for   Jesus."
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;History teaches us that a   lot of people died for Hitler
too.&nbsp; Should
&gt;we
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;worship him?&nbsp; History shows that a lot of people
risked their   lives
&gt;for
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Gandhi.&nbsp; Should we worship him as   if he was a God?
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;"Not at   all.&nbsp; I usse science to explain the
existance of a supreme
&gt; &gt;   &gt; &gt;creator...and he is revealed in the Bible."
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;You do not use science at all and if you were a   real
engineer, you
&gt; &gt;would
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;know this.&nbsp;   Science is based on observation.&nbsp;
Using the Bible as
&gt;   &gt;evidence
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;while trying to pass yourself off as an   engineer says
that either
&gt; &gt;you're
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;ignorant or   you're a calculating charlatan.&nbsp; Which
is it?
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;"But you are using the bible for your points, thus   you
should use to
&gt;it
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;justify your   points."
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;I use the Bible to   discredit it, which is always quite
easily done.
&gt; &gt;The
&gt; &gt;   &gt; &gt;Bible contains numerous inconsistencies, which makes it
the work   of
&gt; &gt; &gt;flawed
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;beings, not unlike any other   book created by man.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Instead of   getting wrapped up in the soap opera, I like
to use the
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;fundamental principles that are entertained in the Bible
and   then
&gt;using
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;them
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;to show   errors.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Besides, educated   Christians believe that the Bible is
not a work to
&gt;be
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;taken literally.&nbsp; It is a work that uses fantasy to
hammer   through
&gt; &gt; &gt;behavior
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;patterns.
&gt; &gt;   &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;"Now we are making progress.&nbsp; 3 points,   the bible
teaches [1] the
&gt; &gt; &gt;universe
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;had   a beginning, [2] there was a global flood, [3] the
earth rests on
&gt; &gt;   &gt; &gt;nothing Job 26:7 and the world will have a one world
government.&nbsp; Is
&gt; &gt;that
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;good   proof."
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Once again Bill, if you   were really an engineer, you
would realize
&gt;that
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;making unsupported statements is not science.&nbsp; [1]
There are   many
&gt; &gt; &gt;theories
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;to explain what happened   before the big bang but none of
them can be
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;supported   scientifically.&nbsp; [2] Global flood?&nbsp;
Do you believe   in
&gt;Noah's
&gt; &gt; &gt;Ark
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;too?&nbsp; I   suppose you believe in Santa Clause as
well?&nbsp; [3] One   can
&gt;pick
&gt; &gt; &gt;out
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;many vague   reference in the Bible to support a number of
things.
&gt;   &gt;What's
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;your point?&nbsp; Again Bill, how is using   the Bible to
support your
&gt; &gt;God-model
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;an
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;act of 'science'?
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt;   &gt; &gt; &gt;I wrote in my previous letter:
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;"Bill,   since I answered one of your questions, answer
one of mine:
&gt;'Is
&gt;   &gt; &gt; &gt;there
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;any logic to faith?'"
&gt; &gt;   &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;Bill, you had no response.&nbsp; If you are a   real
engineer Bill, that
&gt; &gt; &gt;question
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;would   be very easy for you.
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;Mark
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;The Liberator
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;Web Site: http://liberator.net/
&gt; &gt; &gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;_________________________________________________________________
&gt;   &gt; &gt;Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com
&gt; &gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;   &gt;_________________________________________________________________
&gt;   &gt;Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
&gt;   &gt;
&gt; &gt;
&gt;   &gt;
&gt;
&gt;_________________________________________________________________
&gt;Get   your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;

_________________________________________________________________
Get   your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


</BLOCKQUOTE>



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Subject: Re: fish heads
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:17:45 -0800
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Subj:	 Creation Speakers at the Masters College
Date:	02/08/2001 20:46:29 Pacific Standard Time
From:	billyjack1@hotmail.com (Bill Morgan)

Naturally I hope you can attend our Creation meeting this Saturday on the La 
Brea Tar Pits at 1010 N. Tustin at 7 pm.

However, if you do not, there will be a great Creation meeting at the 
Masters College at 21726 Placerita Canyon Rd, 7 to 9 PM.  Ken Ham's group 
will speak on animals that fly, and what is required to fly from 7 to 8; and 
from 8 to 9 a speaker will teac about human skin, and how lucky we are it 
evolved before our bodies spilled out all over the place!  In all 
seriousness, they will share on how marvelously designed  skin is.

The Masters can be reached at 661 259-3540.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com




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Subject: Creation Speakers at the Masters College
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Subj:	Re: Billy Jack on the psychology of Liberator.net
Date:	02/10/2001 12:57:25 Pacific Standard Time
From:	DWise1
To:	billyjack1@hotmail.com
CC:	billbeq@mediaone.net, spambuster@gigagod.com
CC:	DWise1

Oh, now you're all upset and trying to run away because we caught you trying
to lie to us about who had asked whom for specific examples of "polystrate
fossils" and had to correct you and show you the facts.  How typical of you!

Bill M, running away is not the answer!  If you don't want to be caught
telling lies, then all you need to do is to stop telling lies!  It's that
simple!  

Bill M, we still need to get this matter resolved!  Why are you so determined
to prevent that resolution?  This is the FIFTY-SECOND TIME that I have had to
request a resolution!  Remember, *I* must also agree that the matter has been
resolved!  It is absolutely NOT permissible for you to absolve yourself.


Also, I am still waiting for answers to my questions to you regarding your
weasily response to my answer to your polystrate fossil question.  Do you
know of any specific "polystrate fossils" or not?  If you don't, then why did
you ask me that question in the first place?


>>I take full blame.  I apologize.<<

For what?  BE SPECIFIC!  I think that you have worked yourself into such a
state of self-denial that you don't even think that you have done anything
wrong!  If you need a reminder, go to
http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/j_accuse.html .

Also, I'm sorry, but I cannot believe you.  You have already demonstrated
that when you are lying when you apologize for something.  You apologized for
your false accusation that I had "slandered" you on my web site regarding
your professional licensing, but then you turned right around and continued
to make that accusation!  

Bill M, you are a known liar, so whenever you make an apology or confession,
we must insist that you very specifically detail what it is that you are
confessing to and what it is that you are apologizing for.  we cannot simply
accept your word on anything; you must back it up with something fairly
substantial.

Your "apology" cannot be accepted as it is.  The matter has still not been
resolved.  You have slandered me.  I demand resolution.


>>I told you many times I do not save my old emails, unfortunately this never
got through to you comprehending that.<<

Nonsense.  Complete and utter nonsense.  Why you spout nothing but nonsense
and lies?  

I have asked you repeatedly keep making that nonsensical statement.  I have
repeatedly told you that I have GIVEN YOU the COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT of our
emails SIX MONTHS AGO, at http://chiefwise.tripod.com/morgan/transcript.html
.  If you have a problem with that, then you need to tell me SPECIFICALLY
what your problem is.

And you had repeatedly used that nonsensical excuse earlier, when I was still
volunteering to do the actual search for you (ie, from August 2000 to
December 2000, a period of over four months).  And I repeatedly pointed out
to you then that you did NOT need to have the transcript before you (though I
also repeatedly told you where to find it), because what we needed to know is
what you THOUGHT that I had written, eg, what "very nasty names" do you
remember me having called you?  


Bill M, earlier I had asked you what good gaining Salvation would do you if
it caused you to lose your soul.  At the time, I was just trying to get you
to think (oh, what a hopeless task!), but now I realize that your theology
has caused you to lose your soul.  You display no sense of morality, no
ethics, no concern for the well-being of your fellow humans, no regard for
the truth.  Truly pitiful.


################################################

Subj:	Re: fish heads
Date:	02/10/2001 12:59:04 Pacific Standard Time
From:	DWise1
To:	billbeq@mediaone.net
CC:	spambuster@gigagod.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com
CC:	DWise1

Bill B, since you have decided to return, I may now ask you a couple
questions that are outstanding (ie, that I had either not had a chance to ask
yet or that I had asked but you have not responded to). 

First, on 14 Dec 2000 at 1235 PST, I wrote to you:
"You now see that Bill Morgan had just made up his charge about what my web
page says concerning licensed engineers.  Based on his groundless charge, you
had accused me of having slandered him.  This means that your own accusation
was groundless and unwarranted.

"I am waiting for you to explain your actions and to apologize."

Well, Bill B?  What do you have to say for yourself?


Second, on 5 Oct 2000 at 1542 PDT, you wrote to me:
"Mr Wise what is your best explanation for the origin of life?"

The [multi-part] question I wanted to ask you at the time, but did not have
the time for (what with fighting Bill Morgan's obstructionist behavior and a
horrendous work-load) was, and which I do pose to you now:

Why did you ask me that question?  What were you planning to accomplish by
it?  Did you really want to see the answer or is it part of a ploy?

Here are my reasons for asking you those questions.  They should help you
understand the questions better, which should also help you in answering
them.

First, it was immediately obvious to me that you were shilling for Bill M.
He could not pressure me himself to answer his question, because I had
correctly identified his question as yet another of his "rabbit trail" tricks
and quoted HIS OWN TEACHING that I must not answer his question, but rather
insist that he first answer MY question(s) which I had already asked him and
which he had never answered.  I strongly suspect that in a private communiqué
he proposed that you help him avoid having to admit his hypocrisy by having
you ask the question instead.  Therefore, it appears to me that you had no
other reason for asking that question other than to front for Bill M.

And what were Bill M's reasons for asking that question?  Nothing honest, we
know that!  When he tried the same trick on a friend of mine, Bill M lied and
said that he really wanted to hear the answer.  We know that that is not true
because I have answered every single one of those questions of Bill M's and
every single time he avoided the answer (usually, he would drop the subject
completely, just as he did with my answer to his origin-of-life question, and
a few times he would try to bluff that I hadn't given him an answer, just as
he started to do with my answer to his origin-of-life question -- see my page
on it at http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/bills_questions.html ).  

Bill M even let slip to my friend that trying to answer that question would
make my friend look stupid, so Bill M's intention in asking it is to
discredit the other person, to make them look stupid.  And when used against
a single person, it is meant to make that person FEEL stupid.  It's an old
proselytizing trick.  You see it done in many proselytizing tracts, like
Chick Pubs and Bill M's own "Weird Science" and "Weird Tour.  Bill M even
emailed us all a sample dialog using it.  You know how it goes:  the
Christian asks the Atheist some questions that the Atheist cannot answer,
then the Atheist gets all confused and turned around, so that he is ready to
accept the "answer" that the Christian feeds him.  In Bill M's dreams, it's a
form of instant brainwashing.  He probably used it on you too while he was
turning you, though he had more time to play with your mind, so he was
probably more subtle about it.  That's obviously the script that he's been
trying to use on me too, only I kept ruining his script by a
nswering his questions, which Bill M has no idea how to handle.  So he just
runs away.

So, Bill B.  Was that also your own intention when you ask me the
origin-of-life question?  If not, then what was your reason for asking it?


################################################


Subj:	Re: fish heads
Date:	02/10/2001 14:04:55 Pacific Standard Time
From:	DWise1
To:	billyjack1@hotmail.com
CC:	billbeq@mediaone.net, spambuster@gigagod.com
CC:	DWise1

Bill M, while you have avoided a multitude of my questions, there are two
questions in particular that cut to the heart of our entire correspondence.
Of course, you completely avoided answering them, but I must insist that you
do answer them.  They will be duly posted on my web site and your response
will be reported.

1)
Bill Morgan, what IS the role of truth in your creationist ministry?  DO you
believe that faith in God is more important than the truth?  WOULD you
willfully lie for the sake of your religious cause and for its advancement?

2)
Bill Morgan, on 19 Aug 2000 you wrote concerning me: 

"I strongly disagree with his position, I have challenged and attacked his
position, I feel it is a weak position, but I gladly leave the personal
attacks out of it."

On 23 Aug 2000, I replied:
"Excuse me, Bill, but when have you ever 'challenged and attacked [my]
position'?  I cannot remember you ever doing any such thing in our entire
correspondence.  Instead, you have a long and consistent history of avoiding
discussion by either laying down "rabbit trails" or by running away from the
topic.

"For that matter, Bill, with all due respect, I do not believe that you even
know what my position is, even though I have presented it to you more than
once.  And if you do not know what my position is, then how could you
consider it to be weak?  And how could you challenge something that you know
nothing about?  Let alone attack it?

"Could you please tell us all here what my position is?  Then could you
please tell us all here, briefly, why you "strongly disagree with [it]"?
Then could you please tell us all here, briefly, why you "feel it is a weak
position"?  Then could you please tell us all here how you "have challenged
and attacked [it]"? 

"Curious minds want to know."


Well Bill M.  What are your answers to these questions?  


################################################

Subj:	 Re: fish heads
Date:	02/10/2001 15:00:09 Pacific Standard Time
From:	billbeq@mediaone.net (Bill Bequette)
To:	DWise1@aol.com

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, 
I will also acknowledge him before my Father 
in heaven.  But whoever disowns me before men,
I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Matthew 10:32 




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Subj:	 Re: fish heads
Date:	02/11/2001 11:27:49 Pacific Standard Time
From:	spambuster@gigagod.com (Mark)
To:	DWise1@aol.com, billyjack1@hotmail.com
CC:	billbeq@mediaone.net, dwise1@aol.com

After years of debate, it is plain to see that Bill M is not interested in
having a serious conversation regarding religion, philosophy or anything for
that matter, which is the exact reason he and Bill B. have been permanently
placed within my ban filter.

Outlook Express is a great tool.

= )

Mark
The Liberator
E-Mail: editor@liberator.net
Web Site: http://liberator.net/

----- Original Message -----
From: <DWise1@aol.com>
To: <billyjack1@hotmail.com>
Cc: <billbeq@mediaone.net>; <spambuster@gigagod.com>; <dwise1@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: fish heads


Bill M, while you have avoided a multitude of my questions, there are two
questions in particular that cut to the heart of our entire correspondence.
Of course, you completely avoided answering them, but I must insist that you
do answer them.  They will be duly posted on my web site and your response
will be reported.

1)
Bill Morgan, what IS the role of truth in your creationist ministry?  DO you
believe that faith in God is more important than the truth?  WOULD you
willfully lie for the sake of your religious cause and for its advancement?

2)
Bill Morgan, on 19 Aug 2000 you wrote concerning me:

"I strongly disagree with his position, I have challenged and attacked his
position, I feel it is a weak position, but I gladly leave the personal
attacks out of it."

On 23 Aug 2000, I replied:
"Excuse me, Bill, but when have you ever 'challenged and attacked [my]
position'?  I cannot remember you ever doing any such thing in our entire
correspondence.  Instead, you have a long and consistent history of avoiding
discussion by either laying down "rabbit trails" or by running away from the
topic.

"For that matter, Bill, with all due respect, I do not believe that you even
know what my position is, even though I have presented it to you more than
once.  And if you do not know what my position is, then how could you
consider it to be weak?  And how could you challenge something that you know
nothing about?  Let alone attack it?

"Could you please tell us all here what my position is?  Then could you
please tell us all here, briefly, why you "strongly disagree with [it]"?
Then could you please tell us all here, briefly, why you "feel it is a weak
position"?  Then could you please tell us all here how you "have challenged
and attacked [it]"?

"Curious minds want to know."


Well Bill M.  What are your answers to these questions?






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Subject: Re: fish heads
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:30:25 -0600
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Subj:	Re: Creation Vs. Evolution
Date:	02/24/2001 13:11:07 Pacific Standard Time
From:	DWise1
To:	billyjack1@hotmail.com
CC:	BillyJack6, skahappy@voyager.net, DWise1

I'm sorry, Tony.  I know that you don't want anything to do with this mess
between Bill Morgan and me, but Bill did not tell you the truth.

The problem between us is that Bill Morgan has slandered me and has
persistently blocked all my efforts to get that matter resolved.  Bill has
made a series (at least twenty) of serious accusations against me, including
a hate crime, none of which are true.  Bill has refused to tell me what he
has based those accusations on and he has refused to even say what I was
supposed to have written in the commission of the alleged offenses (eg, he
accuses me of having called him "very nasty names", but steadfastly refuses
to say what any of those names were).  I have asked Bill FIFTY-TWO (52) times
to let us resolve this matter by substantiating his accusations with
references to the messages in question, or by telling me what he thinks I had
written in sufficient detail for me to find the messages myself, or to at
least admit that he had just made the entire accusation up.  From the
beginning, 21 August 2000, I made the entire transcript of our correspondence
available to Bill at http://chiefwise.tripod.com/morgan/transcript.html , 
but for the first five months I have repeated offered to
look the messages up myself if only Bill would give me a clue as to which
ones.  Since Bill has steadfastely refused to divulge that crucial
information, I have had to insist these past two months that Bill produce the
messages himself, though my offer to hunt them down does still stand.  Bill
refuses to do so even more obstinantly.

If somebody makes a claim, he should be ready and willing to support that
claim, or at least to explain it.  This is especially true if those claims
are accusations of having committed serious offenses.  In having tried to
deal with Bill since 1996 (minus a hiatus from August 1998 to July 2000), I
have witnessed him doing everything he can to avoid having to support any of
his claims.  In that process, Bill has repeatedly tried diversionary tactics
(such as his insistence that we meet for dinner), he has "replied" with
totally off-the-wall nonsensical outbursts that have nothing to do with the
topic, and he has commonly twisted and distorted almost everything that
others and I have said.  Far too many of my questions to Bill have been to
ask Bill what he meant by his last statement (eg, "Its not!") and why he
thought that I had not answered one of his questions; Bill has never answered
any of my questions of those two classes.

The list of the first 13 of Bill's unresolved accusations is given and
described at http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/j_accuse.html .  My
reasons for not joining Bill for dinner are given at
http://members.aol.com/billyjack6/morgan/dennys.html -- I honestly do not
know why this is such a hot issue for Bill and he has never given me an
honest answer the several times that I have asked him (he says he wants to
eat or that he wants to link arms and sing Sinatra, etc). 

I have witnessed Bill making up the wildest claims, so that I just cannot
accept anything he says about anything at face value.  That was my initial
reaction when he claimed to "have typed thousands of words" to me, but I
checked it out with the wc utility.  Here are the results:
   Lines   Words Characters  Files (year encoded in file name)
   -----   ----- ----------  -----
     64     530    3013 words96.txt
     65     233    1425 words97.txt
     33     236    1282 words98a.txt
    296    1476    8131 words98b.txt
     42     185    1050 words98c.txt
    955    5814   32373 words00.txt
     16      73     390 words01.txt
   1471    8547   47664 total

Frankly, I was surprised to find that Bill's statement was technically
correct.  However, the impression that he was trying to make, that he has
slaved over the keyboard just for me, is false.  Here are some facts:
1. In a quick calculation using the 2000 figures, 1000 words equate to less
than three 60-line pages (2.74 pages).  His entire output to me for the year
2000, by far the greatest production of any year, amounts to just under 16
pages (15.92 pages).  

2. For the year 2000, Bill's first message to me was on 09 Jul and the last
was on 14 Dec.  That was 159 days.  5814 words during that time would average
to 36.566 words per day.  Using the figures from 2000, at 6 words per line,
that would be just over 6 lines per day on average.

3. Now, what about content?  Bill did write a few decent emails during that
time, but most of the time he would write no more than a few lines.  Most of
the time he would either repeat his accusations or he would make a new
accusation by twisting around what I had written or he would go on for
several lines about nonsense that had nothing to do with anything.  I even
received several messages from him that contained nothing whatsoever -- how
could it take him an hour to type absolutely nothing?  Plus, his few-line
messages repeated themselves, so it's not as if Bill actually had to think
about what he was writing.  

4. Bill's claim of not wanting to waste his precious time does not ring true.
At the same time that he was avoiding my direct questions about resolving the
situation created by his slanderous accusations, he was writing much longer
and more frequent emails to his buddy, Bill Bequette.  What was so much more
important to devote his precious time to?  Food, football, ants getting to
his chips, whether gymnasts hate their bodies, what dogs dream about.  And
congratulating each other like a mutual admiration society stuck in
over-drive.  If Bill really wanted to be a watchful steward of his time, then
he would not have wasted it thus.

5. Now, how much typing would Bill have had to do to have helped to resolve
the situation that he had created with his accusations and how does that
compare with what he has typed instead?  One of his accusations is that I
called him "very nasty names", to which I have repeatedly asked him what
those names were so that I could find the message in question.  It would have
only taken him a few words to answer that one and the good faith that would
have demonstrated would have gone a long way.  On a hunch that he had
mistakenly attributed to me somebody else's comment, I even asked him if one
of those "very nasty names" had been "asshole" (which I never called Bill --
I hate that name for linguistic reasons) that that he respond with a "yes" or
a "no".  One word it would have taken.  One word.  Yet instead he types many
times more than that in a determined effort to avoid answering the question
and to avoid supporting his claims.


I recently received an email from a young-earth creationist who apologized
for Bill Morgan's mistreatment of me and said that Bill Morgan is
misrepresenting creationism.  Given the amount of effort that Bill Morgan
exerts to avoid supporting any of his claims, I would be very hard-pressed to
believe anything that he says unless I could check it out for myself.  In his
writings, Bill Morgan says he wants us to test everything that he tells us,
though my experience with him shows me that he hates it when we do try to
perform that testing.  I strongly recommend that you do test what he tells
you.

>>Job 9:8 (expanding universe in our wonderful Bible)<<

Bill Morgan should have continued reading to Job 13:7-12 (Living Bible):
"Must you go on 'speaking for God' when He never once has said the things
that you are putting in His mouth? Does God want your help if you are going
to twist the truth for Him? Be careful that He doesn't find out what you are
doing! Or do you think you can fool God as well as men? No, you will be in
serious trouble with Him if you use lies to try to help Him out. Doesn't His
majesty strike terror to your heart? How can you do this thing? These
tremendous statements you have made have about as much value as ashes. Your
defense of God is as fragile as a clay vase!" 

Bill Morgan says that he loves Jesus, yet Bill persists in dragging His name
through the mud.

PS
If you are going to read Lee Spetner's "Not By Chance", you should also check
out Gert Korthof's review of it at http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho36.htm
and his email from and to Spetner at
http://home.wxs.nl/~gkorthof/kortho36a.htm .  Gert Korthof is a Dutch
biologist who has been studying the various kinds of anti-evolutionists and
reviewing their .  Even creationists have complimented him on how balanced
his reviews are.

You might be interested to know that Lee Spetner was one of the scientists
who tried to claim that the Archaeopteryx fossils had been faked, that
someone had added feather impressions to a dinosaur fossil.  Careful
microscopic examination of the original fossils [plural] showed that the
feather impressions are indeed part of the original matrix and that the
fossils are genuine.

Interestingly, in an Impact article, Duane Gish went on for two pages on how
Archaeopteryx was "100% bird" with no dinosaur qualities (but what about the
teeth?), but then for good measure mentioned the "Archaeopteryx hoax" which
claimed that Archaeopteryx was 100% dinosaur whose only bird qualities had
been faked.


################################################

Subj:	Re: Creation Vs. Evolution
Date:	02/24/2001 13:11:51 Pacific Standard Time
From:	DWise1
To:	billyjack1@hotmail.com
CC:	DWise1


Bill, I am truly ashamed of you that you would lie like that to a fellow
Christian.  That is, of course, assuming that you are not just pretending to
be a Christian, like you used to pretend to be an atheist.  

If you sincerely believe that you are acting as a Christian should, then I
strongly recommend that you compare your personal theology with what a
Christian is supposed to believe and follow -- especially with regards to
morality, ethics, truth, and truthfulness.  My own Christian training is
fundamentalist, so your actions tell me that you have strayed far from the
Christian teachings that you are supposed to be following.

Of course, if you are just putting on an act and you know it, then what can I
say?

If you really don't want to have to do a lot of typing, then why did you
waste all that bandwidth, 5887 words (not counting all that giddy-girl
nonsense wasted between you and Bill B), with your "rabbit trails"?  Most of
those accusations could be cleared up in under 100 words easily.  A few, like
the "very nasty names" accusation, would only take a few words.

Bill Morgan, for the FIFTY-THIRD TIME, we still need to resolve this matter.
Either tell me where your accusations came from (ie, what actual wording do
you remember me using?), or produce the actual text yourself (the complete
transcript has been available to you for six months now at
http://chiefwise.tripod.com/morgan/transcript.html , as you have known for
six months now), or admit for that specific accusation that it is a lie that
you had just made up.  Also, as a reward for your obstinant fighting against
the resolution process, you must explain why you have fought against
resolution for all this time and why you had made up all those false
accusations against me.



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